|
QuickSearch
Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ] |
EvC Forum active members: 67 (9030 total) |
| |
Michael MD | |
Total: 884,245 Year: 1,891/14,102 Month: 259/624 Week: 143/95 Day: 4/18 Hour: 1/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Reconstructing the Historical Jesus | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Nonsense, and a stupid claim, to boot. How would Mythical Jesus proponents not know the arguments for a mythical Jesus? How would they simultaneously make arguments and not know the arguments they were making?
Then what on Earth is the relevance of a minor figure who appears only once by name on the Wikipedia entry for "Jesus myth theory"? Prove to me that's not just an example of well-poisoning.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I don't think most people consider "Joshua" and "Jesus" to be the same name, frankly. Even in the Bible they're not the same name. I'm just not finding this explanation very compelling. Obviously names can change in the retelling but there's no obvious connection between a historical figure named "Yeshua" and a religious figure named "Jesus." And all of that ignores that there's no evidence for this Yeshua, either.
It's certainly considered historical by Christians, who constitute the bulk of "Historical Jesus" proponents. But, we recognize that this isn't your position. But here's the problem. You don't have any explanation for how "Yeshua", who did no miracles, came to be revered as "Jesus", who did do miracles, except for that there was a great deal of fabrication, lying, mythmaking, and storytelling involved in the origin of Christianity and the Jesus mythology. But, once you've opened the door to fabrication, lying, mythmaking, and storytelling, there's no evidence to suggest where to draw the line about what parts are myth and what parts are history. So it's just as reasonable, probably more so, to draw the line behind a fully-mythical Jesus than to draw the line at a mostly-mythical Jesus with a whole lot of post-hoc rationalization for why there doesn't seem to be any evidence at all that he ever lived. Don't get me wrong - post-hoc rationalizations can occasionally be right! It's just that they're not related to what is right. If they're ever right, they're right by accident, because post-hoc rationalization is just guessing. It's not actually evidence.
Its worth pointing out that they are considered historical by the Catholic Church, which actually has experts tasked with the purpose of determining which miracles are myths and which "actually happened." (I don't know how it works, either, but I'm guessing it has something to do with a lowered bar for evidence.) And it's worth pointing out that people who argue against the Historic Jesus aren't just arguing against people like you, who suppose a non-supernatural, non-miraculous "Historical Yeshua", but with genuine Christians who do argue on behalf of a truly Historical Jesus Christ who did everything ascribed to him in the Bible. Indeed there's a bit of a cottage industry of secular Jesus apologists who assume not only the existence of a Historical Jesus but that his various miracles actually did happen, or appeared to happen, as a function of natural processes not understood at the time or First Century techniques of illusion and misdirection.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
They certainly claim to be original compositions and no primary source that they could have been based on now exists. While it may be possible to interpolate between the Gospels the minimal aspects of a hypothetical primary source that would be necessary to parsimoniously explain the Gospels, it's not possible to use that interpolation to explain anything else. There's nothing about the Q source necessary to explain the Gospels that also necessarily provides evidence for the existence of Jesus; it's just that, the source being inaccessible to examination, it rather conveniently can be asserted to contain whatever "evidence" is necessary to corroborate the Historical Jesus, and oh, more's the pity it's not here for you to see! It's a shell game, not evidence.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 16769 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: A fact, not nonsense. And it is easy to be unaware of arguments for your position, simply don't bother with doing the research. The same way that the average ID proponent fails to understand Dembski's CSI argument. quote: You mean what is the relevance of giving an example to support the point I was making ? So all you are doing is proving that you are completely irrational. Making the initial mistake was bad enough, but to try to keep on going as if you were right for two further posts is just silly.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
How is it in any way an example of the point you were making, and not an example of the point I was making about poisoning the well? What's your evidence that Earl Doherty is anything but a minor figure in Jesus myth theory, instead of a voice so prominent that only an ignoramus would be ignorant of him? And again - what's the relevance of playing "Who's Who Among Jesus Denyers" to the question of the evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
I don't think this is a mix up. 'Real' people are ones who exist on Earth: they eat, breathe, shit, and sleep. But 'real' gods don't necessarily have any specific qualities. All the same, though:
We don't know everything about what Paul thought of Jesus. His letters were written to deal almost exclusively with matters of contention, disagreement, and dispute in the churches. If there were any matters not in dispute, then it is unlikely that they would make it into his letters. When it comes to Jesus, a lot of the disputes seemed to revolve around the meaning of the crucifixion and its relationship to Law, the apocalypse and resurrection, and Jesus' relationship to the churches. So, not surprisingly, Paul's letters focus almost exclusively on these aspects of Jesus. When we add in Paul's own claims of focus (1 Cor 2:2), it is hard to imagine reasonably expecting much discussion of an historical Jesus. But not to fear; as I cited in Message 496, Paul makes several statements that indicate him to believe Jesus to have been an historical person who lived on Earth. Here it is again: quote:
Other followers of the Jesus movement? Paul apparently knew the basics of their belief: man named Jesus was crucified as the Messiah and rose from the dead, etc.
Well; it is a debatable manner. I think the evidence and sensibility point to Paul believing Jesus to have been a genuine historical figure; whether or not we can say he made any specific claims to this effect is a slightly different matter.
I am unsure as to how well Paul's statements can support the existence of an historical Jesus; any such argument would certainly be shaky. I'd certainly never use Paul's writings to serve as solid evidence of an historical Jesus; they are, at best, weakly circumstantial.
I've started a debate over at Debate.org; some interesting things might come up. It could be worth following: Paul Believed in a (recent) Historical Jesus Jon Love your enemies!
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
Paul said that no ahistoricists had yet presented anything by Doherty. You asked who Doherty was and why he was being brought up. It isn't too hard to follow this. Paul's right and you're right: You never brought up Doherty. But that's precisely Paul's point. Why not bring some relevant arguments to the table from prominent ahistoricists?
Because most modern ahistoricists have abandoned the argument from silence. They have finally come to accept the fact that they need to provide an alternative explanation and that it is not simply good enough to continue arguing from silence. Some less-informed ahistoricists, however, continue to beat around with that same old argument from silence PRATT, despite it having been largely abandoned by the mythicist movement. It's kind of like those 14 year old Creationists who are still going on about Moon dust. Jon Love your enemies!
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 7051 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: |
There are multiple independent primary and secondary sources for Pontius Pilate. Scholarship is starting to question the historicity of Socrates.
Are you deliberately misrepresenting my argument. Written documents are what is lacking for Jesus. Try using the word contemporary.
Who has argued this? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 16769 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: The point I was making is that you, and Panda and the rest had little knowledge of the arguments that had been put forward for a mythical Jesus, and Earl Doherty is one - just one - of the writers you might have cited. I chose him as an example since he seems to be rather more popular than many of the others. But again, he is only an example. If and been citing any of the more respectable writers, like Price, or Ellegard I would have not made the claim in the first place.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 7051 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: |
But alas, you still present no evidence.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
Such as what? Jon Love your enemies!
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 7051 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: |
This is a thread about Jesus not Pontius Pilate. Do your own research.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member (Idle past 938 days) Posts: 7789 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Oh well, now you mention most people's view of etymology of an ancient Aramaic name that has been translated into Greek and then into Latin before being put into English, it all becomes clear! We all know how most people are a reliable source of information about such things.... Jesus only appears in modern translations of the Bible (abe: there is a Yeshoshua in the Bible, but in English editions he is called Joshua, in Latin this is written as Iosue compare this with Jesus who is Iesu in the Latin (further edit, in the Greek Septuagint the Joshua of the Old Testament is called ιησους which is Iēsous, which is Jesus). It isn't in the original manuscripts. You might as well say that most people can't see the connection between the name Confucius and K'ung-tzu, and it would have the same rhetorical weight. Indeed, many people don't think there is any link between the name 'Ian' and the name 'John' but there is. The Arabs call him Isa, and they refer to Ibrahim. The Jews don't refer to a guy called Moses. The HNV tells us about the children of 'Yisra'el,' and some guy called 'Moshe'.
As there are saints that are considered historical by secular historians but are given supernatural powers by the religious. The explanation is quite simple: People imbue mundane people with supernatural powers. He became revered as 'Jesus' when the Greeks, who do not have the same character set as the Aramaics translated his name so they used using their 'I' and the Latins followed suit. This was then transformed into a 'J' in later translations to be pronounced presumably as 'Y' in the same sense that Jehovah is a modern translation of Yahweh.
Yeah, history is kind of like that. But there are arguments as to why some things can be considered historical and other things can be dismissed. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Cited for what? The case for the mythical Jesus is nothing more than the fact that there's no rational case for a historical Jesus. It hardly requires name-dropping Earl Doherty, or anybody else, to make that case. Again it's just well-poisoning. You're not able to produce even a single example of evidence in support of the historical position, so it's necessary to attack us personally by equating us with "Creationists", even though personal attacks in lieu of evidence is the number one tactic of creationists. It's hard for me to imagine, now, a time when I had any respect for you.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
And presumably that's on the basis of some kind of evidence, not merely on taking First Century claims at face value. If it's on the basis of no more evidence than for the historicity of Christ, then there's reason to re-evaluate that conclusion of historical existence for those saints, as well. Frankly, the more you try to make the case that it's common for secular historians to assume the real existence of historical figures on the basis of no evidence, the more you only prove to me that the state of modern historical scholarship is very dysfunctional, indeed. The only rational basis on which to assert the real historicity of any putative individual is on the basis of evidence. If there is none, conclusions of historicity aren't supportable.
Unless the argument is "on the basis of the evidence" the argument is irrelevant. There are no valid reasons to believe anything, except on the basis of the evidence.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021