The continuation of art styles through a speculated flood

Lysimachus:Please be aware that Topic author is still on the hook for Message 41.As Message 41 is on-topic and was a post that Topic author called me on to produce.WT

You, who can't read a map, are now telling us about the history of the greeks and how close the hebrews were to that culture? Unfortunately, they didn't have much contact with the Japanese even if they did with the Greeks. You have to explain all the cases not just pick on one.

Alright, the Ark is not on topic. But I want a new thread created. I will be making one soon, so I will stop from this point forth.Willowtree, I'll remember what you said. I won't divert him from you to me until you're satisfied enough for him to be "off hook".P.S. Crackpot my foot. If there is any crackpot, it's not Ron, but the false allegations made against Ron. Turkey's highest archaeologists have physically examined the site for themselves and declared it that it can be non-other than Noah's Ark--meeting with the Biblical historical document. It can be no other boat, as there were no other boats that large in ancient times. Ron simply happened to be the "initiater" and is considered the discoverer of Noah's Ark, as Turkey was so gracious to consider him the official discoverer. But just because someone might have some vendetta against Ron and might think he's wrong in other areas, does that mean he's wrong about Noah's Ark? NOT when independent sources verify the site! People complain that not enough independent sources verified the chariot wheels found at the bottom of the Red Sea. We have had some, but more verification would be appreciated. But with Noah's Ark, THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY! We have a TON of independent verification from high places.

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~Lysimachus

Man I want to see that debate. It's gonna be like a train wreck.Also I'd like to see this Ark that Lys keeps mentioning but never substantiating.

Just please have evidence. I can't find any recent reports by the Turkish government. And just because you have an Ark you don't necessarily have THE ARk, that has to be shown, and still it has to be shown that a flood occurred world wide.I'm not holding my breath.lfen

Robert Byers responds to me:

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The great premise is that you proved when the art was created.

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And your evidence against the dating is what, precisely?

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The art is the work of the greek and is therefore post flood.

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Nobody lived in Greece prior to the flood? From whence does this idea come?

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The dating of the art is wrong and indeed un verifable.
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Incorrect.Assertion doesn't make it so. Where is your evidence that the dating is incorrect.Be specific.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

AdminNosy writes:

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Let's ask both parties to give primary references for the dating of the art shall we.

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According to the Museum of Cycladic Art and the National Archaeological Museum of Athens in Athens, Greece, the Cycladic period goes from 3200 BCE to 2000 BCE. (Please note that Greek art goes back even further than the Cyclades such as the Chalcolithic, but I was making a point about a specific artistic style.)Now, as to the exact, specific method they used to date the items, I don't have that. However, I do trust the curators of the museums to be working in good faith with regard to the dating methods. Is the claim that everybody across the globe regarding the dating methods of artwork are working under false premises? It would be nice to know what the specific objections are.Some things I do know: You don't date a piece of stone sculpture by radiometric dating. That would simply tell you how old the stone is, not when it was carved. If I take a million year old piece of marble and carve it today, it's still a million year old piece of marble.You can, however, determine dating through the presence of the artwork in relation to other objects that can be dated radiometrically. For example, you can carbon date things like cloth. If you find the artwork with cloth objects and if it is reasonably certain that the site has not been disturbed, you have a reasonable claim that the carving is at least as old as the cloth. This gives you a lower date.On the flip site, you can examine the artwork for the types of tools that were used to create it. If you find flecks of bronze in the tool marks, then you know that the work can be no older than Bronze Age. This gives you an upper date.Thus, as you look over the artwork, the area in which it was found, the items found with it, the things embedded in the piece, you eventually come to a time period for when it was made.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Current Archeology is one of the leading archeology magazines from Great Britian. Here is a link to some of their information on the Jomon Pottery. They claim radiocarbon dating was used and that the earliest examples date to around 14,000 BC. This would mean that a basic style remained in practice from at least 10,000 years or more before the earliest dates for the Great Flood and at least 1000 years after the latest dates.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

WILLOWTREE responds to me:

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I have not ignored you or anyone else.

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I received a long sought after career advancement and unfortunately I cannot spend all god-damn day on-line.

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(*sigh*)My comment has nothing to do with the timing of your response. It has to do with the substance.In other words, if I ask you, "What is your name?" And you take two weeks to say, "My cat is a Persian," then my claiming that you have avoided my question has nothing to do with you taking so long to respond and everything to do with the fact that I asked you what your name is, not what kind of cat you have.Get over yourself.

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I really want to know your explanation for this, WT. Why would the descendants of a group of eight people pick up the artistic style of a culture they had no connection to?

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Who said 'they' had no connection to the Greeks ?

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They did, themselves.They were Jewish, after all, living on the Western shores of the Mediterranean. Throughout the entire narrative of Genesis up to that point, there is no mention of any civilization outside of the Fertile Crescent area.Similarly, if you look at the artifacts that we find from both areas, we see no cross-cultural remnants.

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Greek culture was a simulataneously developing civilization along side of Hebrew.

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But there is no Cycladic art outside of the Cyclades.And you're conflating time periods. You're confusing the Bronze Age period of the Hebrews with the PRE-Bronze Age period of the Cyclades.

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Please explain why a bunch of Jews would pick up a pagan artistic style.

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All Jews are Hebrews but not all Hebrews are Jews.

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True, and I apologize for my conflation. But again, you're avoiding the question:Why would eight people and their descendants who have no connection to the Cycladic artistic tradition suddenly pick it up?Whether or not we call them "Jews" or "Hebrews" is beside the point. Why would Noah and his descendants, who have no connection to the Cyclades, pick it up upon reaching them? Why is there absolutely no Hebraic influence upon the artwork? Why did the pottery become geometric in its painting?Why is it so overwhelmingly Greek in its style when the people who took it over were so definitively Hebrew?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex responds to me:

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Why would a bunch of Jews start copying a pagan artistic form they had never encountered before such that there is no evidence of any break in the timeline and no outside influence in the output?

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I play guitar and often find myself playing songs that I later find are not actually mine.

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You're missing the point. Read the sentence all the way through to the end:"No outside influence in the output."If you were to analyze your playing, you would find that you have your own distinct style and even if you play someone else's music, you can tell that it's you playing it.If a group of people from a completely distinct artistic tradition were to move to a new geographic location, why would they take up the previous civilization's artistic tradition? Especially with nobody to teach them the style? And how did they manage to completely prevent all remnants of their own heritage from showing up?

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If this could be related the the jewish people's artistry maybe one could think that they without knowing had made something that was not their own in reality.

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Not at all.In fact, I dare say it is impossible. With your guitar playing, are you sure you never heard the songs before? My guess is that you probably did. A lot of music is similar, many songs follow the same chord progressions, so I wouldn't be surprised to find you playing something that somebody else had also played.Sculpture isn't nearly so common. The musical equivalent would be a Chinese five-tone scale musician suddenly playing diatonic scales. The two simply don't relate.

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Using this logic, it doesn't seem like sturdy evidence.

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You're right. Your claim isn't sturdy at all.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

WILLOWTREE writes:

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How could this be when Greek culture/civilization did not begin to form until 1100 to 1300 years AFTER the Flood ?

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Because Greek culture goes back to Neolithic time.In other words, your claim that Greek culture didn't appear until about 400 BCE is simply incorrect. National Archaeological Museum of AthensThey have pieces going back to the fifth millenium BCE.This is the flaw in your argument: You are confusing the Bronze Age period of the Hebrews with the Neolithic period of Greece.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

WILLOWTREE writes:

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The Great Flood: 3145 BC

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Then you claim the Bible is wrong?Genesis 11:10: These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
11:11: And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:12: And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
11:13: And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:14: And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
11:15: And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:16: And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
11:17: And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:18: And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
11:19: And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:20: And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:
11:21: And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:22: And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:
11:23: And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:24: And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
11:25: And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:26: And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.Counting all this up, this puts Abram being born 292 years after the flood.We then go to:Genesis 12:1: Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
12:2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
12:3: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
12:4: So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.Thus, Abram was 75 when the covenant was established. Add that to the 292 years previous and we get 367 years.Whence to:Galatians 3:17: And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.Thus, the Exodus happened 430 years after the covenant. Add that 430 years to the 367 previous and we get 797.Finally to:1 Kings 6:1: And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.Thus, Solomon's Temple was begun 480 years after the Exodus. Add that 480 years to the 797 previous and we get 1277 years, rounded off to 1200 for convenience.Now, all we need to do is date Solomon's Temple, date it, and then add 1277 years to determine when the flood was supposed to have happened.Well, according to the Catholic Church's position, after analysing the Bible for chronologies off of known kings, is that the Temple was started in 958 BCE (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Chronology, Biblical) so we have a pretty good correlation there.Therefore, the flood must have happened about 2250 BCE.Why do you contradict the Bible for the date of the flood? I've given you my calculations. Where do you come up with your date?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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In fact, I dare say it is impossible.

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I disagree. People have similarities, that may effect their art. The similarities could be environment, goals, sometimes thoughts about the similarities could spark the art.

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"No outside influence in the output."

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Doesn't matter, Yes I have heard the songs probably, but the possibilty exists, that possibility is contrary to your
argument.

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If a group of people from a completely distinct artistic tradition were to move to a new geographic location, why would they take up the previous civilization's artistic tradition? Especially with nobody to teach them the style? And how did they manage to completely prevent all remnants of their own heritage from showing up?

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The possibility remains. People come to realizations, reflections, and ideas on their own, if one were to have similar influences than this increases the possibility.

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Sculpture isn't nearly so common.

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Why?

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Using this logic, it doesn't seem like sturdy evidence.

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You're right. Your claim isn't sturdy at all.

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Emphasis on evidence.

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

Hey, if you want to show that Ron Wyatt is NOT a crackpot, all you ahve to do is show a peer reviewed article about his discoveries, and show
how the evidence was verified.If you can do that, then you can demonstrate he is not a flake.However, his claims are too good to be true.. and when things are too good to be true, it usually means they aren't true.

prophex responds to me:

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People have similarities, that may effect their art.

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You're missing the point:You cannot have a similarity without an actual connection to establish the similarity.If you leave a person alone on a desert island, he is not going to come up with Chinese calligraphy. The only way you can learn Chinese calligraphy is to have some contact with it in the first place.If you find yourself playing music similar in style to someone else, it is because you have some connection, either from direct contact or through an intermediary.F'rinstance, I assume you play a standard guitar using the Western diatonic scale. You didn't invent that on your own.

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"No outside influence in the output."

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Doesn't matter

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Incorrect.That is the entire point. There is absolutely no influence from outside the culture. At no point does the Cycladic art become "Cycladic with Hebrew overtones." It remains quintessentially Greek.How on earth do you propose that a culture that was raised as Hebrews with absolutely no connection to the Cycladic tradition managed to perfectly emulate their artistic style with absolutely no connection to the one they were raised with? And not just this once but every other place on earth where there was civilization pre- and post-flood?Why is it we can't find Hebrew influence throughout the world if everybody is descended from them?

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Yes I have heard the songs probably, but the possibilty exists

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No, it doesn't. The possibility does not exist.

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If a group of people from a completely distinct artistic tradition were to move to a new geographic location, why would they take up the previous civilization's artistic tradition? Especially with nobody to teach them the style? And how did they manage to completely prevent all remnants of their own heritage from showing up?

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The possibility remains.

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No, it does not.You will never be capable of coming up with Chinese calligraphy on your own without study of existing works.

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People come to realizations, reflections, and ideas on their own

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True, but when it comes to artistic expression, those realizations, reflections, and ideas are never identical from person to person. Not even between people who are trying to make them the same. There is always a discrepancy.And yet, we do not find any discrepancies in the artistic output of the societies that existed pre- and post-flood.How is it that these Hebrews managed to do what nobody else has been able to manage and not just once but on a global scale such that we cannot find any Hebrew influence in that time period?

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Sculpture isn't nearly so common.

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Why?

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You seriously don't know?If you study Western music, you learn music theory. There is a mathematical foundation for the way in which the diatonic scale works. There is room for tremendous variation within that framework, but the simple fact of the matter is that there are no quarter tones in Western music. They simply do not exist. There is a physical reason why it is called a "Major third" but a "Perfect fourth." The very nature of the way the scale is distributed necessarily causes the circle of fifths that determines key.Sculpture, on the other hand, isn't tied so strongly to the physical nature of the structure. Carving something out of stone is significantly different from casting in bronze. And both of them are quite different from creating something out of Legos.

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Emphasis on evidence.

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That's what I've provided you.There are two museums you can go and visit that shows the extent of the Cycladic artistic output and you simply do not find any Hebrew influence.So given that the evidence shows no connection to Hebraic culture, how can one conclude that the Cyclades were destroyed in a global deluge and the descendents of a tiny number of Hebrews who had absolutely no connection to them managed to pick up right where it was left off with absolutely no indication of a break or change in authorship?And as someone else pointed out, since the reason god destroyed the world was because of the wickedness of the entire population, why on earth would they pick up the artistic traditions of those who were destroyed? Especially given the pagan nature of that tradition?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!