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Author Topic:   Where Science And The Bible Meet
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1652 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 151 of 208 (506360)
04-25-2009 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Peg
04-25-2009 5:04 AM


Eye of the Needle
quote:
needles must have existed in some form...how else did they sew their clothes???
This is what happens when you don't read a sentence in the context of the argument. IOW, read what came before.

John 10:10 (the poster not the verse) is right that it is a creative way to say impossible.

Even through the difficulties of translation the point is still the same. It isn't supposed to be literal.

HEBREW NEW TESTAMENT STUDIES

What we have instead then, I believe, is a beautiful Hebrew hyperbole, as in the tree sticking out of one's eye whilst one is removing a speck in another's eye! Indeed, Jewish Talmudic literature uses a similar aphorism about an elephant passing through the eye of a needle as a figure of speech implying the unlikely or impossible:

So whether it is supposed to be camel or rope, the point is still the same. Even if people want to think it is a small gate, the point is still the same even if the gate didn't exist at the time Mark wrote.

I'm not sure why Larni brought this up in this topic since it's obviously a figure of speech.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1145 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 152 of 208 (506403)
04-26-2009 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Peg
04-25-2009 5:02 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
what keeps all the organs functioning?

Technically, neuro functions - (chemical synapses) - that are smaller in scale than any molecular scale that blood functions on.

"What keeps all the organs functioning?" - the brain.


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Peg, posted 04-25-2009 5:02 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 153 of 208 (506516)
04-27-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by onifre
04-26-2009 2:09 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
onfire writes:

"What keeps all the organs functioning?" - the brain.

what about people on life support?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 155 by Rahvin, posted 04-27-2009 11:39 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1145 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 154 of 208 (506524)
04-27-2009 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Peg
04-27-2009 5:14 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
what about people on life support?

I'm going to need a bit more than that to understand your point.

What about people on life support?


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Peg, posted 04-27-2009 5:14 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Peg, posted 04-29-2009 7:06 AM onifre has responded

    
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 155 of 208 (506542)
04-27-2009 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Peg
04-27-2009 5:14 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
what about people on life support?

What about things that are alive but don't have blood?

I mean, come on, this is ridiculous. Bacteria are alive, but don't have blood. Plants and fungi are alive, but don't have blood. Insects and crustaceans are alive, but don't have blood (they have haemolymph, it's a bit different).

What about human cell cultures that we can keep alive in a nutrient substrate, without blood?

What about the fact that you can't make something live just by adding blood?

Blood is a carrier for oxygen and nutrients, little more.

The Biblical view that blood contains some magical "life force" is nothing more than stone-age mythology. Christian apologetics that "see, the Bible was right, the life is in the blood" are being idiots as usual, ignoring everything that disagrees with their predetermined conclusion as well as the fact that the knowledge that blood is necessary for human life is rather obvious even for the most ignorant of civilizations.

Seriously, do Christians think that no other societies had figured out that blood loss causes death?


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 156 of 208 (506791)
04-29-2009 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by onifre
04-27-2009 7:57 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
people who are completely brain dead can be kept alive on life support for many years. The bodily functions do not require the brain when life support is turned on.

I'm really just being cheeky here... but i think they call it a 'vegetative state'

people with kidney failure can have their blood cleaned by dialysis once a week,
the bladder & bowel can be removed and a bag can be attached instead
people can survive without other organs

Im just saying that we can survive without some organs with the help of medical intervention...but we cant survive without our blood.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 157 of 208 (506801)
04-29-2009 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Peg
04-29-2009 7:06 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
Im just saying that we can survive without some organs with the help of medical intervention...but we cant survive without our blood.

Human tissue can survive without blood. We grow human skin for grafts using a nutrient substrate. The necessity of blood is not due to any special property of blood - there is no "magic life force" as the Bible clearly implies. Blood is necessary only because we do not currently have an effective alternate method for carrying nutrients to all of teh cells of the body. Skin is rather easy because you don't need to penetrate far - it's almost 2-dimensional. Carrying nutrients to something like a heart or a kidney is more difficult. Organs do, however, survive for short periods of time without blood, as shown in organ transplants - no blood is circulated while the organ is in transit, and if it is re-implanted within a short enough amount of time, it will survive. Clearly, life cannot be "in the blood."

Still, scientists are working on artificial blood - that is, an alternative means of carrying nutrients to the body, so that blood donations will no longer be required.

What will you say when they are eventually successful, and a human being lives without actual blood?

How do you respond to the fact that most of the living things on this planet do not have blood, but are still alive?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Peg, posted 04-29-2009 7:06 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Peg, posted 05-03-2009 7:01 AM Rahvin has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1145 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 158 of 208 (506810)
04-29-2009 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Peg
04-29-2009 7:06 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
The bodily functions do not require the brain when life support is turned on.

Ignoring of course any modern scientific medical treatment that may help sustain an organism for some time while their body has stopped working naturally, it cannot be ignored that every function in your body functions due to your brain actively instructing it to do so.

Your question was simple, "what keeps all the organs functioning?" - you did not add any other specifics to it.

It's an indisputable fact that your organs get their instruction to do what they do from your brain, shut your brain down - NOT adding any life support - and your organs will shut down as well.

Again, "what keeps all of the organs functioning?" - the brain


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Peg, posted 04-29-2009 7:06 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 159 of 208 (506812)
04-29-2009 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Peg
04-29-2009 7:06 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
people who are completely brain dead can be kept alive on life support for many years. The bodily functions do not require the brain when life support is turned on.

I'm really just being cheeky here... but i think they call it a 'vegetative state'

Being in a vegetative state does not equate to being brain dead. It equates to the higher functioning of the brain being lost or impeded in some way. The lower functions, the autonomic stuff, still functions. If the brain stops working completely, then body dies because there is nothing to tell the brain to beat, the lungs to contract, ect, etc.


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Michamus
Member (Idle past 3352 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 160 of 208 (506881)
04-30-2009 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Perdition
04-29-2009 12:49 PM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
Perdition writes:


then body dies because there is nothing to tell the brain to beat


I'm guessing that you meant "the heart to beat". Other than that, I agree with your entire post.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Perdition, posted 04-29-2009 12:49 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 161 of 208 (506918)
04-30-2009 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Michamus
04-30-2009 6:13 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
No, its the mechanism that tells the brain to beat against the skull when attempting to debate fundamentalists. :D

Thanks for keeping my post honest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Michamus, posted 04-30-2009 6:13 AM Michamus has responded

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Michamus
Member (Idle past 3352 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 162 of 208 (506922)
04-30-2009 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Perdition
04-30-2009 10:37 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
Perdition writes:


No, its the mechanism that tells the brain to beat against the skull when attempting to debate fundamentalists.:D


ROFL! That's a good one man. I really needed that laugh today. It's much appreciated.
This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2384 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 163 of 208 (506956)
04-30-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Perdition
04-30-2009 10:37 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
or one could say that this does not occur among fundies since they are apparently "Brain Dead."


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
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ochaye
Member (Idle past 3433 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 164 of 208 (507038)
05-01-2009 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Force
06-02-2008 4:20 PM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
'Life is not simply in the blood of Biological beings. What if you remove the brain?'

The Bible needs to be understood in the context of those for whom it was originally written. Long before Harvey described blood circulation, long before anyone knew that every living cell requires a blood supply for survival, blood was thought to be 'the life principle'. That presumably arose because, by common observation, if a person lost enough blood, death ensued. It does not matter to us what the biological truth is, it is the perception of the first readers of the Pentateuch that matters.

But in any case, the purpose here is not to do with biological life, but the life of the 'eternal' spirit, for which biological life, and blood, form an analogy. Literal blood was to form a visual parable, its use in obtaining notional atonement for sins arising from, and giving rise to the precept that 'without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness'. So when a later Bible author writes 'To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,' it means that life, spiritual life, has become available to mankind because of the loss of spiritual life of the Christ, made manifest by the literal loss of blood of the crucifixion. That is why the blood of Jesus is spoken of as 'precious', and why superstitions about that blood subsequently arose. The significance of blood throughout the Bible is really that of the freeing of the conscience from guilt of sins committed, sins being offenses toward deity; and that end is the whole purpose of the Bible. This concept of forgiveness through blood has been called the 'red line' that starts in Genesis and continues unbroken to Revelation.


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 Message 127 by Force, posted 06-02-2008 4:20 PM Force has not yet responded

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2384 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 165 of 208 (507084)
05-01-2009 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by ochaye
05-01-2009 7:36 AM


Re: Re-Science and Bible
The Bible needs to be understood in the context of those for whom it was originally written.

It would surely help if people did that instead of looking at it through 21st century eyes. In a sense, science updates & corrects what was believed at the time of the Biblical writings.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by ochaye, posted 05-01-2009 7:36 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
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