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Author Topic:   Luke and Matthews geneologies
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 168 (62267)
10-23-2003 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by sidelined
10-23-2003 1:15 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
Luk 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

Luk 1:25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on [me], to take away my reproach among men.

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.

Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

Luk 1:29 And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshdow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is not a generation chart for mary but it is obviouse that she didnt have intercourse with joseph but she did have with the Lord. Also note that it says that Jesus is the son of David or rather that David the father of Jesus. They usally call fathers when they are great-great-grand-fathers, grand-fathers,etc. They are still fathers. Also note that there is no where else Jesus could have inherited line of david but through mary according to verse 1:32 he is the son of david but how I ask, must be Mary because she didn't have sex with Joseph according to the Scripture.

-Quiz

P.S. I am currently looking for that chart(if it exists) sidelined gimmie a few days ok?

[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-23-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by sidelined, posted 10-23-2003 1:15 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by sidelined, posted 10-23-2003 3:30 AM Quiz has responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 138 of 168 (62269)
10-23-2003 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Quiz
10-23-2003 1:07 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
a few problems...

the Matthew genealogy comes through Jeconiah who is cursed in Jeremiah to never have offspring on the throne of David

the Luke genealogy goes through Nathan not Solomon...in 2Samuel it is Solomon's line that will forever sit on the throne of David

Please don't say the lines converged after Zarubabel as this brings us back to Jeconiah's line

As far as the cousin comment goes...where does this come from?

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 1:07 AM Quiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 1:51 AM Asgara has responded

    
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 168 (62271)
10-23-2003 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Asgara
10-23-2003 1:46 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
Yes there are two genealogies in the four gospels total, Matthew's account lists the legal successors to David's throne. It is not necessarily a genealogical list in a strict father to son sense, for, as is true in many kingly histories, the eldest surviving heir may be a grandson, a great-grandson, or even a nephew or other relative of the reigning monarch. Luke's record however, is a father-to-son listing linking Joseph to King David. Of course, Jesus was not Joseph's son, But Joseph's genealogy is essentially Mary's genealogy, for they were cousins; Jesus inherited from his mother, Mary, the blood of David and therefor the right to David's throne. Jesus was born in the royal line.

-Quiz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2003 1:46 AM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2003 1:55 AM Quiz has responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 140 of 168 (62272)
10-23-2003 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Quiz
10-23-2003 1:51 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
sorry Quiz...you didn't answer any of my questions. Jeconiah? Nathan? cousins??

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 1:51 AM Quiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 2:02 AM Asgara has responded

    
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 168 (62274)
10-23-2003 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Asgara
10-23-2003 1:55 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
I am not finding this can you show me, All though I have herd of it I would need a few minutes to figure it out.

what is the references -friend?

-Quiz

[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-23-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2003 1:55 AM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2003 2:40 AM Quiz has responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 142 of 168 (62277)
10-23-2003 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Quiz
10-23-2003 2:02 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
what part?

Jeconiah - Jeremiah 22 - curse culminates in vs 30

and actually the genealogies in Matt, Luke and I Chron all come thru the cursed line of Jeconiah

There are many questions concerning Jeconiah that were brought up in another thread...you may be interested in reading it
www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=108&m=12#12 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=108&m=12#12">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=108&m=12#12

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 2:02 AM Quiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 2:57 AM Asgara has not yet responded
 Message 146 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 7:28 AM Asgara has responded

    
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 168 (62279)
10-23-2003 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Asgara
10-23-2003 2:40 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
ok, thx be back in a little while

-Quiz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2003 2:40 AM Asgara has not yet responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 168 (62282)
10-23-2003 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Quiz
10-23-2003 1:44 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
This is where a critical point of biblical criticism comes to light.The way I read it is that Mary was not bearing Josephs son but rather was pregnant with another man's child.The shame on the house of David would be obvious since we are told that Joseph is of the house of David [Luke 1:27]To avoid scandal what better way than to bring in divine intervention.

Now I am atheist and that is ok it is my decision but I honestly believe that this is a more plausible scenario than an immaterial invisible spirit impregnating a woman since IMHO there is no seed in a ghost eh? This also gets rid of the dilemma of virgin birth and any possible problem there.It is also a common move on the part of royalty to spindoctor the scandals in the family closets.

The aplogetics of the bible disappear into nonexistence when we view the bible as stories told for the purposes of neccesity and social structuring and yes even war.I always come back to this point when I listen to the wars between people over religous points of view and the rhetoric of my god/your god and that point is this.
It does not matter what your point of view the party responsibile for killing is us,we humans,we build the weapons we pull the triggers.Why do we cling to God. Why don't we grow up and ,for those of you who believe,stand up as Adults and build a society based on people first Belief last.
The greatest influence on my view of war and its stupidity was gained through war poetry of the first and second world war.There is no insult to a nation that cannot be overcome by means other than bloodshed.as proof of that I offer you this poem.The last line says it all.

Poetry of Wilfred Owen

Dulce et Decorum est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! -- An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime. --
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Obscene as cancer,
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, --
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

This is the price paid by young men every day.There is no book whose story is enough to warrant such horror.

"". . .Above all I am not concerned with Poetry.
My Subject is War, and the Pity of War,
The Poetry is in the Pity." Wilfred Owen"

[This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-23-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 1:44 AM Quiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 4:34 AM sidelined has responded

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 168 (62292)
10-23-2003 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by sidelined
10-23-2003 3:30 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
I believe what happend there is The holy spirit came and blocked her from view of god because he is to holy to be seen in the physical world and then god and her created the baby. I am not sure if this is true but it said that god overshadowed her.

So it was not the holy spirit it was the Lord/father himself

-Quiz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by sidelined, posted 10-23-2003 3:30 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by sidelined, posted 10-23-2003 12:57 PM Quiz has responded

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 168 (62306)
10-23-2003 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Asgara
10-23-2003 2:40 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
quote:
Jeconiah - Jeremiah 22 - curse culminates in vs 30

Ok, I found out that Jeconiah is not cursed. Atleast I dont find his name in Jerm 22:30 I do find a few other names which are similar and they are not in the list of people as descendents in Matthew ,Luke , and 1-Chron.
The person who was cursed is - Coniah or formally known as Jehoiachin. But I did however find Jeconiah in the descendents for matt but not in Luke as this person must have been in the royal line, a cousin and not direct descendent so they didn't include him however he is not cursed. So I dont see what you are talking about exactly.

So for this one I am going to say No you are wrong.

Here is the verse which explains who was cursed Jerm 22 24-30

[As] I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence; And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand [of them] whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans. And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die.
But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? [is he] a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

-Quiz

p.s. Btw, those people on this link ----)www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=108&m=12#12 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=108&m=12#12">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=108&m=12#12 (I wonder if those people who think God is such a bad God have ever thought about what the world would be like without Jesus, that is, if he never lived, if he never came, well do you know what it would be like ?

Try reading this book,tell me if you change your mind about saying it would be the same or better.I suggest checking into this they go into history very well, history is 100% perfect in the book and it really goes over it well.)

"What If Jesus Never Been Born?" Auther: D. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe. written in 1994 I believe it is a really good book. You should check it out.

[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-23-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2003 2:40 AM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2003 10:57 AM Quiz has responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 147 of 168 (62344)
10-23-2003 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Quiz
10-23-2003 7:28 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
First of all, I have read the bible.

Second - Jeconiah, Coniah, Jehoiachin are the same person - did you read the entire chapter? Coniah/Jeconiah is the cursed form of the name Jehoiachin

Jehoiakim is Jehoiachin/Jeconiah/Coniah's father, Shealtiel/Salathiel is Jehoiachin/Jeconiah/Coniah's son and Zerubbabel is Shealtiel/Salathiel's son.

Both Matt and Luke trace the line back to Jeconiah's offspring

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 7:28 AM Quiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 6:09 PM Asgara has responded

    
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 168 (62367)
10-23-2003 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Quiz
10-23-2003 4:34 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
You must explain matthew 1:18 then.

"she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 4:34 AM Quiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 6:15 PM sidelined has responded

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 168 (62416)
10-23-2003 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Asgara
10-23-2003 10:57 AM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
quote:
First of all, I have read the bible.

Many have that does not further your examination to be truthful.

quote:
Second - Jeconiah, Coniah, Jehoiachin are the same person - did you read the entire chapter? Coniah/Jeconiah is the cursed form of the name Jehoiachin

Ok I see the problem, both lines in Matt, Luke have nothing to do with the savior. They are Joseph' line as we all know Joseph was not Jesus' REAL father but step father if you will.

-Quiz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2003 10:57 AM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Asgara, posted 10-24-2003 1:42 AM Quiz has responded

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 168 (62417)
10-23-2003 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by sidelined
10-23-2003 12:57 PM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
When you read the gospel sidelined, you also have to take to the account all the words spokan on the subject not just a singal verse this is what many people do and run into contradictions. You must remember all the words come from the same person just spokan by many different prophets. There for If I where to tell 5 people something and they all told the world what I said, they would all say it differently, thus none of there accounts would be false but you would still want to here them all and then make up your mind on what I really said. UNDERSTAND?

-Quiz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by sidelined, posted 10-23-2003 12:57 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by sidelined, posted 10-23-2003 9:59 PM Quiz has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 168 (62449)
10-23-2003 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Quiz
10-23-2003 6:15 PM


Re: The correct way to look at it!
So this would be one of the false prophets Christ spoke of then?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 6:15 PM Quiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 10:38 PM sidelined has responded
 Message 161 by Quiz, posted 10-24-2003 4:09 AM sidelined has not yet responded

  
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