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Author Topic:   Endtime Prophecy and the European Union
Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 115 of 313 (700158)
05-30-2013 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
05-30-2013 1:36 PM


cities on seven hills
Well everyone knows that Washington DC is a city of seven hills, as is Baltimore.

I found your claim here to be quite intriguing so looked it up and found that for something that supposedly "everybody knows" it's odd that Wikipedia doesn't seem to agree with you. They list many cities claimed to be built on seven hills, but list neither Baltimore nor Washington D.C. Do you happen to have a more reliable source for your assertion?

Rome was known at the time Revelation was written to be THE city on seven hills.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 102 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 1:36 PM jar has responded

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Faith
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Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 118 of 313 (700165)
05-30-2013 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
05-30-2013 5:43 PM


Re: cities on seven hills
If you can count so well doesn't it seem odd to you that those two cities are not on Wikipedia's list? How explain that if it's so clear to you? Hey, I'm quite willing to believe both are well known to be cities on seven hills, but you haven't shown me that it's so.

Not only was Rome known at the time of the writing of Revelation to be THE city on seven hills, but it was known down through the centuries to be that as well, and was particularly recognized by the Reformation writers --some sixteen centuries later in northern Europe -- to be the seat of the Antichrist as revealed in that book. Pretty hard to dismiss such a large bit of history I would think.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 121 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 6:08 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 313 (700174)
05-30-2013 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
05-30-2013 6:08 PM


Re: cities on seven hills
It's not a matter of dismissing the history, no one doubts that many if not most of the Reformation writers believed Revelation to be prophecy.

All of them did.

But that is simply to acknowledge that they were wrong about that too.

As a prophecy of the Antichrist they considered it to be fulfilled in the papacy, which continues up to the present, and the sad thing is that we've lost the perspective of the Reformers and are now looking for the Antichrist often without regard to the papacy. The Inquisition and other murders by the papacy are also considered to be fulfillment of the prophecy of Revelation, the blood of the martyrs pictured in the cup held by the Whore who Rides the Beast. So you can hardly say the book of Revelation is just a failed prophecy. The sad thing, again, is that we've lost track of the ongoing historical fulfillments of its prophecy.

Nevertheless, most of us expect a FINAL fulfillment of the prophecy yet to come as well, a final Antichrist, a final bloodletting of the true believers by the papacy, and then its final defeat. Sure it started out small and local but it's all over the world now and the finale will include the whole world.

The papacy supported Hitler, one of the biggest antichrists to date; there's one fulfillment but not the final fulfillment. Could have been I suppose but we defeated him. The Rwanda genocide was fomented by Catholic priests. And they've been involved in other genocides as well. Revelation is being fulfilled over and over again in history. We're just now working up to the last fulfillment, and I agree with PaulGL that it looks like it's going to center in the European Union. Lots of reasons to think that.

But again, honestly, I do wish you could show me that Baltimore and Washington DC are well known to be cities on seven hills. I know for instance that DC was built on a plot of land that had been called "Rome." There are intriguing connections here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
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Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 313 (700193)
05-30-2013 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
05-30-2013 6:56 PM


Re: cities on seven hills
Yeah, some of the Reformation writers thought the Pope was the antichrist which again just shows how silly the politics of the period became.

Again, they ALL thought that.

Just for the record, there would have been no Protestant Reformation without the revelation of the Pope as the Antichrist. That was the whole point, that the Roman Catholic institution, and particularly the papacy itself, is evil to the core, utterly ANTI-Christian, a masterpiece of wolf in sheep's clothing -- such a masterpiece that even after the priests who spearheaded the Reformation began to see through it, it took them years to see through to its core, and even then some retained some Romanisms, that's how deep the deception was/is. Like many Catholics today they had some knowledge of the truth through their church but it was so entangled with error and superstition it took dedicated application of the Bible to free them from it.

What's sad is that today's "Protestantism" has lost touch with all that and many are falling back into the same old errors.

Even this thread is pursuing a false end times point of view, as if Revelation only applied to a yet-future event, which keeps our eyes off the fact that it's been fulfilled over and over again in history already, and the same Antichrist has been doing the fulfilling over and over. This thread's perspective is Futurism, a very recent end times interpretive point of view, invented by a Jesuit, of course to throw Protestants off the truth. How well they've succeeded. By now there is hardly anything left of true Protestantism thanks to the cleverness of the Jesuits.

We need a recovery of the history we've lost. And Catholics need to know all this too, Catholics who were brought up in their religion and know nothing of its true history, buy all its lies, think its practices are Christian and so on. I feel sorry for them and hope many will find their way out of it yet, just as the once-Romanist Reformers did. They had all been Catholics you know, the priests who led it but also all the multitudes who came to follow them. We need a new Protestant Reformation. I'm sure you don't agree, but thought I'd take the opportunity for a little polemic off your post anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 6:56 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 8:31 AM Faith has responded
 Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 05-31-2013 4:07 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 130 of 313 (700232)
05-31-2013 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
05-31-2013 8:31 AM


Get some history, JAR
Have you even read the 95 Theses? He did not see the Pope as Antichrist or even as wrong or evil and in fact reenforced both the wisdom, the holiness and the righteousness of the Pope.

Fer cryin out loud, jar, YOU need to read Martin Luther. At the time of his posting of the 95 Theses to the Wittenberg Church door, no, he had no argument with the Roman Church as such, no idea of leaving the Church, and no idea of doing anything more than calling for debate about reforms of what he was sure the Pope himself would recognize as excesses. It was only after some time passed, as his challenge to debate was treated as some kind of heresy, that he started to see the errors of the Church as far greater than he'd originally had any idea. It took some years for him to arrive at the conclusion that the Pope is the Antichrist.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 313 (700236)
05-31-2013 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
05-31-2013 11:06 AM


Re: Get some history, JAR
Gee, first you complain that I haven't read Martin Luther, and then when I demonstrate that it's you who haven't read him, you just blithely skip onto another subject. Typical JAR.

The Pope was regarded as Antichrist throughout the Reformation and into the present by those who know the Bible. The whole thing was about the Bible, none of it was political. Your view is the propaganda, not mine.

And contrary to your claim that the prophecy of Revelation hasn't been fulfilled I've already pointed out more than once that much of it has been fulfilled, many times down the centuries, as the papacy fits the description of the Harlot Church riding the beast holding the cup of the blood of the martyrs.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 313 (700262)
05-31-2013 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Theodoric
05-31-2013 4:07 PM


Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Can you show any of the leaders of the reformation that claimed the Pope was the anti-christ?

Start with one. We will go from there. This requires evidence, not assertion.

It's well known, Theodoric, but here are some references:

Luther: his first statement on Antichrist, but I know there were others later.

But whoever wrote this bull, he is Antichrist...

Woe to all who live in these times. The wrath of God is coming upon the papists, the enemies Of the cross of Christ, that all men should resist them. You then, Leo X, you cardinals and the rest of you at Rome, I tell you to your faces: "If this bull has come out in your name, then I will use the power which has been given me in baptism whereby I became a son of God and co-heir with Christ, established upon the rock against which the gates of hell cannot prevail. I call upon you to renounce your diabolical blasphemy and audacious impiety, and, if you will not, we shall all hold your seat as possessed and oppressed by Satan, the damned seat of Antichrist; in the name of Jesus Christ, whom you persecute.

Wikipedia on Antichrist

(This is clearly written by a Catholic since it refers to "dissidents and heretics" but for the most part the information appears to be correct. It also mentions later, not in the part I quoted, that the futurist interpretation of prophecy was invented by a Roman Catholic in order to deflect the accusation of Antichrist from the Pope. )

Protestant reformers

Many Protestant reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Thomas, John Knox, and Cotton Mather, identified the Roman Papacy as the Antichrist.[33] ...

William Tyndale, an English Protestant reformer, held that while the Roman Catholic realms of that age were the empire of Antichrist, any religious organization that distorted the doctrine of the Old and New Testaments also showed the work of Antichrist. In his treatise The Parable of the Wicked Mammon, he expressly rejected the established Church teaching that looked to the future for an Antichrist to rise up, and he taught that Antichrist is a present spiritual force that will be with us until the end of the age under different religious disguises from time to time.[35]

Reformation Papacy

Lutherans, Reformed, Anabaptists, and Methodists all included references to the Papacy as the Antichrist in their confessions of faith:

ABE: Was just listening to this half-hour discussion of Calvin's views on the Roman Church and the papacy as the Antichrist. If you have the time I think it covers some important points.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : to add the MP3 discussion link


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Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 5:18 PM Faith has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 313 (700272)
05-31-2013 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
05-31-2013 5:18 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Every Pope is an Antichrist, because the Pope claims to occupy the seat of Christ while his teachings deny Christ. There are many lesser antichrists in the world as well, and I'm one who believes that there is yet THE Antichrist to come, the final Antichrist scripture says Jesus will destroy at His second coming. He may be a Pope or like Hitler a wannabe world conquerer who is backed by the Pope, who then would be thought of as the False Prophet.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 5:18 PM jar has responded

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 Message 140 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2013 7:15 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 141 of 313 (700278)
05-31-2013 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Dr Adequate
05-31-2013 7:15 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Yes the topic has wandered a bit as usual, because of all the questions that come up as aspects of it are discussed. This particular tangent started with a question about whether Rome really is the City on Seven Hills of scripture.

As for the final Antichrist which many of us believe is yet to appear and fairly soon too, nobody knows his identity at this point. It may be this current Pope but although he would certainly have a role to play it may instead be a political leader the Pope supports as Hitler was supported by the Pope in his day. Scripture says that this personality must be revealed and then the Day of the Lord will come. He hasn't yet been revealed.

The thread is also supposed to focus on the European Union, and many of us believe that is the likely arena through which the power of the final Antichrist to be expressed. There are many interesting symbols connected with the EU that relate it to the Book of Revelation, the Harlot Church that rides the beast for instance.

But I've been off on my own subject here and haven't been following the rest of the thread much and probably shouldn't get into that aspect of it at this point at least until I have time to review the thread.

P.S. I just added a link to a discussion about Calvin's views of the papacy to my post to Theodoric above, Message 136. I think it's interesting enough to be worth your time.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 313 (700290)
05-31-2013 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Theodoric
05-31-2013 10:17 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Seems to me you're doing some hairsplitting for no useful purpose. But here's another quote from Calvin:

John Calvin (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from Institutes by John Calvin.

By the way that website has a long list of preachers, before, during and after the Reformation, who regarded the papacy as Antichrist.

The papacy itself was regarded by the Reformers as the Antichrist system and of course each Pope who assumes all the titles and prerogatives, false teachings and so on, of that office, is individually an Antichrist. There were some good Popes, way back there, at least good Bishops of Rome if not yet Popes, but the papacy itself represents the usurpation of the authority of Christ in general.

Really, take a few minutes to listen to the link I posted. in 136, it's interesting.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 313 (700421)
06-02-2013 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulGL
06-02-2013 2:45 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
The antichrist will be used by God to utterly destroy catholicism (and all religion) wherever he is in power. He will 'burn her with fire, and kill her children with death'. So please quit wasting time considering the red herring of 'pope is the antichrist.

Yes, that is THE reason to suppose that THE Antichrist, the FINAL Antichrist will not be a Pope but a would-be "Caesar," along the lines of another Hitler. Nevertheless to miss that the papacy is the ongoing Antichrist system (and in fact the inheritor of the legacy of the Caesars, the pagan Pontiff, the man who would be a god) that persecuted the true believers down the centuries is as good as giving the wolf in sheep's clothing carte blanche to continue his plans against the true Church without being detected or confronted.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 313 (700503)
06-03-2013 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulGL
06-03-2013 3:01 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
If you do not believe that this verse applies to the Roman Catholic Church, read Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

WHAT verse did I deny applies to the RCC? I said nothing of the sort.

The Roman Catholic Church killed more Christians during the Protestant Reformation than the Roman Empire did during the early days of the church.

I think you must mean during the Inquisition, not the Reformation, and I'm well aware of that, have argued along those lines myself many times here. I have NO idea why you are telling me these things.

Satan expressed his authority through the old Roman Empire, which severely persecuted the early Christians. When the Antichrist comes to power, Satan will give him his full power and authority to express him in persecuting God's people and worshiping Satan through the worship of the Antichrist. In all these years since the end of the Roman Empire, what has served Satan as his expression and provided him with worshipers? None other than the Roman Catholic Church!

Funny, you're saying what I've been saying and don't seem to know it. The usual problem is that most of the Church is blind to the fact that the RCC is a CONTINUING persecutor of true believers, continues to plot against Protestantism to this day. Their murders and plots are usually thought wrongly to be a thing of the past.

Again, you are preaching to the choir here and I have no idea why you think you need to do this.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 161 of 313 (700536)
06-04-2013 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by caffeine
06-04-2013 5:11 AM


Symbolism of the European Union
Any chance you could fill us in on any of these signs of the EU's involvement in the End Days?

What I was thinking of is the statue of Europa riding a bull outside the building that houses the EU Parliament in Strasbourg and another in front of another EU building in Brussels. Christians immediately recognize this image as "the woman who rides the beast" in the Book of Revelation, who is generally understood to be the Harlot Church, a false worldwide religious system headed by the Vatican.

I found this blog that includes these statues, plus the fact that the main EU building, designed to imitate the Roman Colosseum, reminds Christians of the Tower of Babel -- quite pointedly if you look at the poster this blogger found.

Some time ago I'd noticed that the flag of the Council of Europe is a circle of twelve stars on a blue background which immediately reminded me of the woman in Revelation with a crown of twelve stars and the moon under her feet, and I discovered that the designer of the flag did in fact have her in mind, as I report at my own blog. This is another Roman Catholic symbol as they conceive it.

The fact that ten countries are at least foundational to the EU also reflects Bible prophecy of a revived Roman Empire in the last days made up of ten nations. I'd found a picture of a commemorative coin I posted that represents the ten nations but the picture is now not showing up at my blog so I may have to track it down again.

It's not particularly relevant to this discussion I suppose but in that post I also got carried away about the EU anthem being Beethoven's Ode to Joy which is a wondrously pagan one-world theme song.

I've also heard that in one of the main council rooms, maybe the parliament, that Chair Number 666 has been pointedly left vacant. That I'd have to look up again, but I'm mostly writing this off the top of my head, maybe I can find more later.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : make links more visible

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 313 (700538)
06-04-2013 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Panda
06-04-2013 9:43 AM


Re: Symbolism of the European Union
I did post the link to that blog that has pictures of the building, Breughel's painting of the Tower of Babel and an EU poster that refers to the Tower of Babel. Maybe the link doesn't show up clearly enough in my post?
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 313 (700540)
06-04-2013 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Panda
06-04-2013 10:15 AM


Re: Symbolism of the European Union
OK it reminds us of a famous painting of the Tower of Babel. The imagery is striking, and the EU poster confirms that they too find it striking and representative of their goals. Sure you can nitpick it to death for whatever thrill that gives you.
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