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Author Topic:   Genesis: is it to be taken literally?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 301 (106397)
05-07-2004 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Proboscis
05-07-2004 4:23 PM


IMHO there is very little in the Bible ...
that should be taken literally.
In fact, a literal interpretation of the Bible seems to go against everything in how Jesus and the others seemed to teach. If you look, time after time, Jesus uses Parable to teach a message. When he talks about the Faithful Servant (Luke 12:35-40) it doesn't really matter if the story is true or if he just made it up. The point is what can be learned from the story.
Genesis is the same. It is an attempt to explain a world view as well as possible, with the observations available at the time and in terms and language that could be understood by the audience at the time.
Please remember, almost any theory or deduction that works is worthwhile. As an example, the Ptolemaic view of the Universe was a great theory. For over a thousand years it explained the observations, and it was useful in making predictions that were later verified.
It was only when new data was gathered that necessary to toss the Ptolemaic System out and substitute the Copernican view.
Euclidian Geometry is another example. It works great for day to day stuff, but fails when applied to very large scale. For that, you need Non-Euclidian Geometry.
So the stories in Genesis were fine at the time they were developed. But as more knowledge is gained, they need to be placed aside, not forgotten, but superceeded.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Rick Rose, posted 05-13-2004 1:19 PM jar has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 301 (106492)
05-07-2004 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by mike the wiz
05-07-2004 10:04 PM


Well, the sun was certainly there before the earth. And 8 minutes after the sun first turned on, the light was at the orbit of the earth.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mike the wiz, posted 05-07-2004 10:04 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 05-07-2004 10:12 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 301 (106496)
05-07-2004 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by mike the wiz
05-07-2004 10:12 PM


Reason one that it cannot be taken literally.
What came next?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 05-07-2004 10:12 PM mike the wiz has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 301 (106567)
05-08-2004 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by almeyda
05-08-2004 12:28 AM


almeyda
There are two records out there that GOD left for you to read. One was written by men, changed, modified, parts added, parts thrown out, translated, and revised. It's called the Bible.
The other is the world around you. It is the Universe. It was certainly not written by men. It was not modified by men. No part of it has been added by men, or thrown out by men.
You have two places you can look. You have the Bible that is certainly the product of men, or the Universe that certainly is NOT the product of men.
This message has been edited by jar, 05-08-2004 08:56 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 138 by lfen, posted 08-13-2004 4:25 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 301 (106571)
05-08-2004 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by JonF
05-08-2004 10:21 AM


Re: More succinctly ...
A big Amen Brother.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 301 (106577)
05-08-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by almeyda
05-08-2004 12:28 AM


So let's begin looking at Genesis.
Chapter One
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Okay so far if the term HEAVEN includes everything in the Universe.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The first sentence is okay, but it starts falling apart in the second sentence.
3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And from this point on, NOTHING works.
If GOD created the Heavens, then light was already there. In fact, the Sun came long before the Earth and so light certainly preceeded the creation of the Earth.
So if you read the Book of Genesis, by line three you are already running into things that cannot be taken literally and still correlate with the other record, the one that was NOT written by men.
The other thing that happens in these three lines is that it makes a 6000 year old universe impossible. If GOD created the Heavens, then we can see directly that "In the Beginning" happened far more than 6000 years ago.
If we go out on a clear night we can see the Heavens that GOD created. There are stars in the sky. The majority, the VAST majority of those stars lie more than 6000 light years away.
If we just look at a couple close neighbors, the Large and Small Magellanic Galaxies, they are both well over 150,000 Light years away from us.
So if we can see those two Galaxies, the age of the universe has to be atleast 150,000 years (the time it took for the light from those Galxies to get here). But rememeber, those are only the two closest neighbors. They are the kid next door and actually part of our local system.
The most distant Galaxy that we have seen so far, is more than 13,000,000,000 light years away.
So we are faced with two sets of data. There is the Bible that was written by men and the Universe that was NOT written by men.
Which has the greater AUTHORITY, what was written by men or what was written by GOD?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by almeyda, posted 05-08-2004 12:28 AM almeyda has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 301 (106652)
05-08-2004 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Cold Foreign Object
05-08-2004 1:50 PM


I don't know that I would call it a Myth
as much as an early theory.
Genesis does the best it can in the language of the day to explain the things that are observed by the people living then. Actually, it is one of the better attempts when compared to some other Creation stories.
And for a long period of time it was useful and a perfectly valid theory. It could be used to explain what was then observed. Any things that didn't quite fit in could be attributed to Giants, Dragons or other basically unexplained creatures and events.
It was only when additional FACTs came to light, ones that could not be explained by the Genesis Theory, that, like the Ptolemaic Theory of the Solar System, it had to be abandoned.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 301 (106893)
05-09-2004 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object
05-09-2004 8:35 PM


Genesis should be treated just like any other theory that no longer serves a purpose
just like the Ptolemaic Solar System was superceeded by the Copernican Solar System, like all the other old Creation Theories, those of the American Indians, the Inuit, The Hindu and Sumerians, let Genesis go.
Genesis was a great theory at the time. It worked well and explained the facts that were seen. But like any theory, once the evidence comes forward that it can't explain, you need to drop the theory and go to something that can explain what is seen.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by grass monkey, posted 05-09-2004 9:04 PM jar has replied
 Message 53 by Sylas, posted 05-09-2004 9:17 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 301 (106898)
05-09-2004 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by grass monkey
05-09-2004 9:04 PM


Re: Genesis should be treated just like any other theory that no longer serves a purp
Well, what does it explain? Is there ANYTHING in it that can be taken literally?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by grass monkey, posted 05-09-2004 9:04 PM grass monkey has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 301 (106904)
05-09-2004 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by grass monkey
05-09-2004 9:16 PM


Re: Genesis should be treated just like any other theory that no longer serves a purp
Actually, I believe that GOD created the Universe. But that is totally independant of Genesis.
So I can accept that Genesis is a figuritive description based on the needs of the people living at the time.
But that is it. Nothing there to be taken literally.
Religion is not concerned with HOW. Religion deals with WHY. It is a guide for living, not a scientific text book.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by grass monkey, posted 05-09-2004 9:16 PM grass monkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by grass monkey, posted 05-09-2004 9:33 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 301 (106910)
05-09-2004 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Sylas
05-09-2004 9:17 PM


Re: Genesis should be treated just like any other theory that no longer serves a purp
Myth does not mean wrong or even inaccurate.
At the time, it did a pretty good job explaining things. It was an attempt just like all the other Creation Myths to explain the world and the variety seen. It really was a theory, not as we would define science today, but the best that could be done before the scientific method was developed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Sylas, posted 05-09-2004 9:17 PM Sylas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Sylas, posted 05-09-2004 10:25 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 301 (106912)
05-09-2004 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by grass monkey
05-09-2004 9:33 PM


Re: Genesis should be treated just like any other theory that no longer serves a purp
but do you believe in the God of Abraham?
Just like every good Christian, Jew and Muslim.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 301 (106930)
05-09-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Sylas
05-09-2004 10:25 PM


Re: Genesis should be treated just like any other theory that no longer serves a purp
Exactly.
Religion is about Why.
Science is the HOW.
They are not in conflict, though some people try hard to make that the case.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by SRO2, posted 05-09-2004 10:51 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 301 (106936)
05-09-2004 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by SRO2
05-09-2004 10:51 PM


Re: Genesis should be treated just like any other theory that no longer serves a purp
IMHO, the Great Flood and like so many other things, is NOT to be taken literally. I know it never happened. It is a morality play.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 301 (106939)
05-09-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by sidelined
05-09-2004 10:57 PM


Re: flood morality?
It is as I said, a morality play. There were those who did not believe in GOD. God punished them. It uses images that might be familar to many, the damage that could be done through floods.
The whole Flood, Noah story, like so many others, were simplistic plays that could be told, or acted out around a campfire. They had parts that children could play (remember it is the kids that need to be taught), good, evil, salvation and loss.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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