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Author Topic:   Genesis: is it to be taken literally?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4022 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 271 of 301 (182228)
02-01-2005 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Terry48420
01-31-2005 6:33 PM


Re: Reply to Brian
What I believe has nothing to do with the statement you made, namely, that most Christians before Darwin subscribed to a literal Book of Genesis.

You have failed to provide a single thing to support that assertion.

Will I just assume that this is your personal opinion and that you do not actually know for sure if this is correct or not?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Terry48420, posted 01-31-2005 6:33 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 301 (182239)
02-01-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by crashfrog
01-31-2005 9:36 PM


Reply to crashfrog
How can a book substantiate its own divinity?

The Bible does in a couple of ways. The first way is by saying it is in verses like II Tim 3:16. The second way is by giving prophecy of events that come true hundreds of years latter.

The Bible is not just one book. It is a compilation of 66 books written by some 40 authors over a period of about 1600 years in three different languages. Given this the hand of God had to be in it for the Bible to make any sense at all.

If you don't believe the Bible to be devine, then there is no reason for this thread of discussion about taking Genesis literally. However, I believe it is devine and should be taken literally except where the context dictates otherwise.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2005 9:36 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2005 10:48 AM Terry48420 has responded

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 273 of 301 (182292)
02-01-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 8:03 AM


Re: Reply to crashfrog
However, I believe it is devine and should be taken literally except where the context dictates otherwise.

Which I think I've made pretty clear is the case for Genesis. I mean, consider your passage from Timothy:

quote:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Nowhere in that list does it say that scriptures is profitable for information about the natural world; or as a recount of ancient history; or for any purpose besides how one is supposed to live as a Christian.

I mean, it seems pretty clear to me - Genesis is poetry and contains clear signals that its a mythological account; and the Bible makes specific claims about its purpose, none of which are to be an accurate account of the natural history of the Earth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 8:03 AM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 12:45 PM crashfrog has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 33492
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 274 of 301 (182308)
02-01-2005 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Terry48420
01-31-2005 9:35 PM


Re: Reply to jar
Did man build any of the universe?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Terry48420, posted 01-31-2005 9:35 PM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 12:50 PM jar has responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 301 (182336)
02-01-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by crashfrog
02-01-2005 10:48 AM


Re: Reply to crashfrog
The Bible says "Thy word is truth". Not the truth or a cultural truth just truth. God's word can not lie. When it gives historical information, it is accurate.

Of course the Bible is not a complete history of the universe. Only God's dealings with his chosen people and how they are to live. When ever his people go to a city or have a battle, you can bet your bottom dollar that that city or battle was there.

The same goes for the great flood and the creation. God's word would not be true if he gave an account of an event that never happened or was factually incorrect.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2005 10:48 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Coragyps, posted 02-01-2005 2:11 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2005 3:11 PM Terry48420 has responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 301 (182338)
02-01-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by jar
02-01-2005 11:24 AM


Re: Reply to jar
Did man build any of the universe?

Man builds things all the time, but uses existing things. He can not create things. Does your question have a point that is on topic?


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 11:24 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 12:57 PM Terry48420 has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 33492
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 277 of 301 (182342)
02-01-2005 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 12:50 PM


Re: Reply to jar
Man builds things all the time, but uses existing things. He can not create things.

Good, so you agree that man did not create the universe.

Does your question have a point that is on topic?

Absolutely and we'll get to that. Trust me but I'm very old and slow and my teeth are gone and I gotta take little bites and my memory is terrible so I can only handle small thoughts and I'm not very bright so I have to shine bright lights on anything to see it.

Work with me.

So far I think we agree that man did not create the Universe, that the Universe then provides a record that was not written by man. So far are we together?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 12:50 PM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 2:59 PM jar has responded

Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5552
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 278 of 301 (182353)
02-01-2005 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 12:45 PM


Re: Reply to crashfrog
When ever his people go to a city or have a battle, you can bet your bottom dollar that that city or battle was there.

Brian! Arachnophilia! Are you guys in the building? This guy needs some help..... :D

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 12:45 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Brian, posted 02-01-2005 3:24 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 279 of 301 (182362)
02-01-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by jar
02-01-2005 12:57 PM


Re: Reply to jar
So far I think we agree that man did not create the Universe, that the Universe then provides a record that was not written by man. So far are we together?

I think so. However, there are a lot of unknowns in the universe and much of what we think we know through science may change in the future if the past is any indication.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 12:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 3:01 PM Terry48420 has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 33492
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 280 of 301 (182363)
02-01-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 2:59 PM


Re: Reply to jar
Are there any original copies of ANY of the documents included in the Canon available?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 2:59 PM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:10 PM jar has responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 301 (182365)
02-01-2005 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by jar
02-01-2005 3:01 PM


Re: Reply to jar
Are there any original copies of ANY of the documents included in the Canon available?

No, but there are some very old copies and the scribes were very carful not to make mistakes.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 3:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 3:12 PM Terry48420 has responded

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 282 of 301 (182366)
02-01-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 12:45 PM


God's word can not lie.

Shakespeare is a liar?

When it gives historical information, it is accurate.

Only when you assume it is. When you actually try to verify that accuracy, you find that the Bible and the historical account from other sources don't agree.

God's word would not be true if he gave an account of an event that never happened or was factually incorrect.

So Shakespeare is a liar?

To lie you have to be presenting falsehood as truth. Genesis is not presented as a historical account; its presented as a poem about the creative nature of God, and his relationship to his creation.

Genesis is not presented as a true story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 12:45 PM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:33 PM crashfrog has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 33492
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 283 of 301 (182367)
02-01-2005 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 3:10 PM


Re: Reply to jar
But there are differences in content between some of the old surviving copies, aren't there?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:10 PM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:17 PM jar has responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 301 (182368)
02-01-2005 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by jar
02-01-2005 3:12 PM


Re: Reply to jar
Very minor differences.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 3:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 5:54 PM Terry48420 has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 4022 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 285 of 301 (182369)
02-01-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Coragyps
02-01-2005 2:11 PM


Re: Reply to crashfrog
I think the guy is beyond help :D

He seems unaware that not a single character or event in Genesis has ever been identified in any external source.

He is probably a young guy new to bible studies, he will learn in time with any luck.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Coragyps, posted 02-01-2005 2:11 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

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