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Author Topic:   Genesis: is it to be taken literally?
Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 301 (182370)
02-01-2005 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by crashfrog
02-01-2005 3:11 PM


crashfrog
Shakespeare is a liar?

Shakespheare wrote plays...he never claimed they were true. The Bible claims to be "Truth". The very embodyment on truth.

Only when you assume it is. When you actually try to verify that accuracy, you find that the Bible and the historical account from other sources don't agree.

Archeology has proven many of the historical facts and has never proved it wrong. There are some things we have not found yet, but that is not proof that they were not there in antiquity.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2005 3:11 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Brian, posted 02-01-2005 3:36 PM Terry48420 has responded
 Message 289 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2005 4:05 PM Terry48420 has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 4022 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 287 of 301 (182371)
02-01-2005 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 3:33 PM


Re: crashfrog
Archeology has proven many of the historical facts and has never proved it wrong.

Archaeology never 'proves' anything, that is a basic principle of the discipline. However, it is good at disproving.

But, since this is about Genesis, can you provide ANY archaeological evidence for ANY Genesis character or event?

Cheers.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:33 PM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:48 PM Brian has responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 301 (182372)
02-01-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Brian
02-01-2005 3:36 PM


Reply to brian
But, since this is about Genesis, can you provide ANY archaeological evidence for ANY Genesis character or event?

I was mainly talking about latter books, but I did see a program on the Discovery Channel that found the remains of Joseph's house in Egypt.

The people in Genesis were mostly nomadic and would not leave much of a trace after 4000 years.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Brian, posted 02-01-2005 3:36 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Brian, posted 02-01-2005 4:09 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 289 of 301 (182376)
02-01-2005 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 3:33 PM


Shakespheare wrote plays...he never claimed they were true.

To the contrary, a number of his plays portray English historical events. They're not presented with disclaimers that deny their historical accuracy. Neither, of course, does he claim it literally happened that way.

Is Shakespeare a liar?

The Bible claims to be "Truth".

No, the Bible claims to be God-breathed, and profitable for reproof, doctrine, and teaching, so that the readers of the Bible may be righteous.

It does not claim to be a history textbook. That's your erroneous interpretation. It does not claim that the account of Genesis is literally how it happened.

Archeology has proven many of the historical facts and has never proved it wrong.

Archeology proves that the Flood never happened. That's one thing, right there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:33 PM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 4:25 PM crashfrog has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 4022 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 290 of 301 (182377)
02-01-2005 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 3:48 PM


Re: Reply to brian
I was mainly talking about latter books, but I did see a program on the Discovery Channel that found the remains of Joseph's house in Egypt.

So, we can say that archaeology hasn't proven anything in Genesis, that's fine we have a start at least.

Didn't see that one. Although Bryant Wood wrote an article about some house at Avaris, using Beitak's research, that MAY be Josephs house. But archaeology does not provide absolutes like this, it only SUGGESTS. But for me to take this seriously I would need a bit more info.

By the way, the entire Joseph tale fits a period of Egyptian history much later than the time proposed by the bibical texts.

For example, if you look at some of the names in the Joseph narratives they do not belong to the bible time frame for Joseph.

For a start, Joseph apparently talks to a pharaoh around 1850 BCE, but 'pharaoh' as a title did not exist until the time of Thutmosis III (1490), who is the first pharaoh to be called 'pharaoh'. (McCarter, P. K. “The Patriarchal Age” in Shanks (Ed) Ancient Israel: A Short History from Abraham to the Roman Destruction of the Temple, Prentice Hall: Biblical Archaeological Society, Englewood Cliffs; Washington DC. p 27)

Also, although some of the personal names in the story are Egyptian, they belong to a later date. Joseph’s wife is called Asenath (Genesis 41:45), a name with parallels beginning in the middle of the 20th Dynasty (about 1184-1070 BCE). The name of Asenath’s father is Potiphera (Genesis 41:45), and this name has been found on an Egyptian stele dating to the 21st Dynasty (about 1070-945) or later. The name of Joseph’s Egyptian master Potiphar (Genesis 37:36) is probably a shorter version of the name Potiphera. Joseph’s own Egyptian name, Zaphenath-paneah (Genesis 41:45) has no exact parallel in extant Egyptian records, but names with a similar structure are attested to from the 21st Dynasty (about 1070-945 BCE) and later. (McCarter, 27)

The people in Genesis were mostly nomadic and would not leave much of a trace after 4000 years.

The Egyptians are mentioned in Genesis, there is a pharaoh as well, they did leave traces.

There is a significant event that we may expect to have left some record in the non-biblical sources, the war described in Gen.14 between the allied forces of the five Cities of the Plain and the four king alliance led by king Chedorlaomer. A fairly surprising feature of this war is that no one has actually been able to identify any of the nine kings in any extant external source.

I was mainly talking about latter books.

Well, let's open it up to include every character and event in all the books from Genesis to Judges. That is a huge scope for you. What direct evidence do you have for any character or event in any of these books?

Cheers.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:48 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 301 (182378)
02-01-2005 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by crashfrog
02-01-2005 4:05 PM


Archeology proves that the Flood never happened. That's one thing, right there.

Geology according to some proves that there was a catastrophic world wide flood.

BTW the Bible does claim to be truth

John 8:31,32
John 17:17


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2005 4:05 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2005 4:35 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded
 Message 295 by Mike_King, posted 02-01-2005 5:44 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 292 of 301 (182384)
02-01-2005 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 4:25 PM


Geology according to some proves that there was a catastrophic world wide flood.

No, it doesn't.

BTW the Bible does claim to be truth

Truth, but not a historical account. Truth for the purpose of the righteousness of its students.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 4:25 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded

Soplar
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 301 (182386)
02-01-2005 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
05-07-2004 5:45 PM


Response re My Old/Closed Thread
Hi AdminJar

I didn’t get back to you in time and you had closed the thread which precluded a direct reply. I hope this works.

Response to AdminJar

I Think that we schould close this (now OBE). I’m a bit flattered that we reached the magic 300 inputs. But the discussion seems to be a bit circular, and for me a bit frustrating. I have posed, but never received satisfactory answers to a number of questions for those who lean toward Creationism or Intelligent Design such as:

1. Creationism asserts that the world, as we see it today, was formed approximately 10,000 years ago by a supernatural Creator. If so, then either:


  1. The creator established the world and then left things to proceed on their own

    Or

  2. The Creator is still creating, since the world keeps changing – e.g., movement of continents

But then, either the Creator established a world in which bad things happen such as cancer, heart disease, etc., or the Creator is creating them at this time. No one has explained why this is happening other than “We can’t know the mind of God” which IMO is not an answer.

2. A similar set of arguments applies to the Intelligent Designer concept.

3. The question of why the explanation of the world in a book written over 2,000 is superior to the accumulated knowledge of some of the greatest minds who have ever lived.

It’s been interesting and educational and I will probably continue to visit some of the other topics. So could you suggest a couple now that this is closed, or I could just restart another one as I think, based upon a clearer view of the discussion, I could make a worthwhile OP, and in particular focus on some of the questions/issues I raise above. Please advise

Regards

Soplar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 05-07-2004 5:45 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Brad McFall, posted 02-01-2005 4:42 PM Soplar has not yet responded
 Message 297 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 5:57 PM Soplar has not yet responded
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 4096 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 294 of 301 (182387)
02-01-2005 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Soplar
02-01-2005 4:35 PM


Re: Response re My Old/Closed Thread
The reason you dont have the compared response you sought IS because as I know and have never seen a comprehensive discussion anywhere about the difference between the argument from design and physicOtheology. Till then we are all in this shady dark place of comfort.

This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 02-01-2005 16:43 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Mike_King
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 301 (182399)
02-01-2005 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 4:25 PM


Flood
Hi terry,
I am also a Christian. But Geology does not 'prove' there was a single world wide catastrophic flood which created all the rock formations we see today. Within a sequence, one can see many diferent processes, environments etc which suggest many different events. There was a world wide flood, to some probably the majority of mankind was the end of the last ice age when sea level rose by some 100s of feet.The present black sea is evidence of flooded civilsation and also off the coast of India.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 4:25 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 33492
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 296 of 301 (182403)
02-01-2005 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 3:17 PM


Re: Reply to jar
Okay.

So we have two records, one the Universe was not created by man, the other the Bible was very definitely created by man. The record from the Universe tells us one story, the Bible another. The Bible may well be inspired, but it certainly is not accurate.

Why should I, as a Christian, believe either of the creation myths in Genesis when they so clearly do not correspond to the record GOD left us?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 3:17 PM Terry48420 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 297 of 301 (182406)
02-01-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Soplar
02-01-2005 4:35 PM


Re: Response re My Old/Closed Thread
Hi Soplar,

I am one of the few YECs in this thread. I do not have all the answers, but I will give it a shot and point you to a couple of books if you are really interested in learning about the YEC position.

1. Creationism asserts that the world, as we see it today, was formed approximately 10,000 years ago by a supernatural Creator. If so, then either:

The creator established the world and then left things to proceed on their own
Or

The Creator is still creating, since the world keeps changing – e.g., movement of continents

I would lean toward option 1. Things like the movement on the contenents are not really creative works of God, but the natural order of things that God set up. God has intervened in history after the creation. Most notable is sending his son Jesus.

But then, either the Creator established a world in which bad things happen such as cancer, heart disease, etc., or the Creator is creating them at this time.

God created things to be perfect. No sickness, death and etc. Sickness and death were introduced into the world at the fall of man when he ate of the forbidden fruit in Genesis 3.

2. A similar set of arguments applies to the Intelligent Designer concept.

I will refer you to a book that may help: www.ApologeticsPress.org has a book called "Signs of Intelligence" by William Dembski and James Kushiner. I don't personally have the book, but have heard that it is very good.

3. The question of why the explanation of the world in a book written over 2,000 is superior to the accumulated knowledge of some of the greatest minds who have ever lived.

Because it is the word of God and He should know about these things. Our scientific theories change all the time as new data is found. God does not change.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Soplar, posted 02-01-2005 4:35 PM Soplar has not yet responded

Mike_King
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 301 (182408)
02-01-2005 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by jar
02-01-2005 5:54 PM


A reason for you!
quote:
Why should I, as a Christian, believe either of the creation myths in Genesis when they so clearly do not correspond to the record GOD left us?


First of all, there is truth in the first opening chapters of Genesis. As Christians, we all accept God does the creating. It also sets the scene of Mans' relationship to God. Genesis 1 to 2 was never meant to be a science book, but it does say at least 4 times in the Hebrew scriptures that God encourages us to explore his creation (=science. Of course it will always come to problems when one applies a literal interpretation to the text, but biblical interpretation needs to be measured witht he style of which it is written. In Genesis 1 is a clearly strucured poem to how God set aside the Sabbath as a special place of rest and communion with God on the model of a seven day week which is still running to this day.
Genesis nor the bible was ever meant to be a science book of "how", but "why".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 5:54 PM jar has not yet responded

Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 301 (182410)
02-01-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by jar
02-01-2005 5:54 PM


Re: Reply to jar
At some point it comes down to faith. Either faith in your understanding of how the universe works or faith in God's word.


Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 5:54 PM jar has not yet responded

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1827 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 300 of 301 (182413)
02-01-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Terry48420
02-01-2005 4:25 PM


Terry48420 writes:

BTW the Bible does claim to be truth

John 8:31,32
John 17:17

You may need a more persuasive argument than the two simple passages you reference.

quote:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31,32 KJV

This quote says nothing about the Bible.

quote:
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17 KJV

This quote too, says nothing about the Bible.

So, what does the Bible "say" about "the Word"?

  • In holy scripture: God is called "The Word." John 1:1

  • Verbal messages from Yahweh are called "the word of God." Or, "The word of the LORD."

  • AND, - Christian sermons are called "the word of God."

The word is something one hears.

quote:
"When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said." John 2:22

Note the distinction made between the two: "the scripture AND the word."

Now, the really important question is: Where, in all of holy scripture, can we find a direct statement which unmistakably identifies "The Word of God" as those little black ink marks on that piece of moldering papyr?

I'm askin'

db

This message has been edited by doctrbill, 02-01-2005 18:36 AM


I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: Isa 45:5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Terry48420, posted 02-01-2005 4:25 PM Terry48420 has not yet responded

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