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Author Topic:   If we are all descended from Noah ...
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 6 of 165 (10477)
05-28-2002 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RedVento
05-28-2002 10:57 AM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
One question.. If that is the case how do you explain the existance of religions that predate the flood that are still around today?(Buddism & Taoism for example)
Another question... How do you know that Buddism and Taoism predate the flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RedVento, posted 05-28-2002 10:57 AM RedVento has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RedVento, posted 05-28-2002 12:19 PM w_fortenberry has replied
 Message 13 by Peter, posted 05-28-2002 7:16 PM w_fortenberry has replied

w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 8 of 165 (10481)
05-28-2002 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RedVento
05-28-2002 12:19 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
Well I did a quick search to find out IF they did predate the flood, and cannot say they did, except for possible hinduism which originated 4000 BCE to 2200 BCE.. however the cultures that fostered these religions(Indian, Chinese) do predate the flood and as far as I know there is no mention of Judeism in their cultures after the "flood."
Allow me then to rephrase my question. How do you know that the Indian and Chinese cultures predate the flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RedVento, posted 05-28-2002 12:19 PM RedVento has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RedVento, posted 05-28-2002 2:05 PM w_fortenberry has replied

w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 10 of 165 (10492)
05-28-2002 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RedVento
05-28-2002 2:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
Archeoligical records.
http://hawk.hama-med.ac.jp/dbk/chnpyramid.html has some interesting information about chinese pyramids and burial mounds, and links to more articles.
It is a bit harder to find stuff about India since I keep getting references to Indians and Indiana.. but I will keep digging.. its a slow day.

The link you provided merely presented some dates without proving their validity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RedVento, posted 05-28-2002 2:05 PM RedVento has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by RedVento, posted 05-28-2002 2:59 PM w_fortenberry has replied

w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 14 of 165 (10520)
05-28-2002 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by RedVento
05-28-2002 2:59 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:

Ok, check this one http://www.elore.com/Astrology/History/early.htm
It talks about the history of Astronomy.. I am not sure what you are looking for in terms of "validity" since I can say the same thing about the bible.. All it is is a bunch of stories, where is the validating evidence.. At least the pyramids of china can be carbon dated, the bible has to be taken at its word..

You made the claim that certain cultures (Indian and Chinese) predate the flood. I am simply asking you what evidence your claim is founded upon. If that evidence is the carbon dating of the pyramids, please provide information on the tests performed to obtain that dating. If you have some other form of evidence, please present the details of that evidence. If you have made this claim without having any supporting evidence on hand, please admit so, find the said evidence, and resubmit your claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RedVento, posted 05-28-2002 2:59 PM RedVento has not replied

w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 15 of 165 (10521)
05-28-2002 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peter
05-28-2002 7:16 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
That is actually a very good question. Could you please tell us
how many years ago the flood happened, providing scientific
evidence to support your claim ?
Once you've given us that we can debate which cultures pre-date
the flood.

I may get to that eventually. Right now I am merely curious as to why our good friend is so sure that certain cultures predate the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Peter, posted 05-28-2002 7:16 PM Peter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 05-29-2002 9:57 AM w_fortenberry has replied
 Message 17 by RedVento, posted 05-29-2002 10:32 AM w_fortenberry has replied

w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 18 of 165 (10622)
05-30-2002 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
05-29-2002 9:57 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
Here is an example of the evidence the existence of the Chinese culture prior to 4500 years (time of the mythical Noahchian flood) ago.
http://www.vhs.com/store/teas/tcm.html
Please note that 3494 B,C is 2002 years plus 3494 years equals 5496 years +/- 5 years (for the differences between calenders and Grgorian calender shifts). The chinese were very exact with their record keeping and monitoring their dynasties.
Here is some data on astronomy which can be correlated using modern planetary mechanics and back calculated to determine the accuracy of the chinese records.
http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a11846.html
I think that this will do for a start, time to get back top work as my incubations are about done.

I) You have presented a date for the flood of 4500 years ago or approximately 2500 BC. As you are the first person in this thread to provide such a date, I would humbly request that you explain why you have chosen that particular one.
II) You made a reference to the "mythical Noahchian flood." If I am not mistaken the mythology of the flood is still a matter of debate in this forum. You are, of course, free to express your opinion, but it might be better to do so in a different format than the one you have used.
III) In regards to your first link, I highly doubt that the virtual health store can be considered an authority on Chinese culture. Yet, even if they were, they did not present any evidence for their date of 3494 BC. They merely asserted it as if expecting one to take for granted that they were correct.
IV) As for your second link, NASA is definitely an authority on astronomical phenomena; however, their understanding of ancient Chinese might not be nearly as authoritative. This link, like your first one, failed to provide any explanation of why the dates presented should be accepted as valid.
Thus I must once again revert to my question of, how do you know that the Indian and Chinese cultures predated the flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 05-29-2002 9:57 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tranquility Base, posted 05-30-2002 2:33 AM w_fortenberry has replied

w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 20 of 165 (10626)
05-30-2002 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by RedVento
05-29-2002 10:32 AM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
Well to get definitive evidence I will need the timeframe of the "flood" so I can get you the evidence you require. Unless you want me to use your own words... "I will get to that eventually" in the mean time, like you, I will just try to impose my will with words..
Allow me to refresh your memory...
You stated, "If that is the case how do you explain the existance of religions that predate the flood that are still around today?(Buddism & Taoism for example)"
In defense of that question you later stated, "...however the cultures that fostered these religions(Indian, Chinese) do predate the flood..."
You made both of these claims regarding cultures predating the flood before any date for the flood was presented in this debate. If you do not know the date of the flood, how can you claim to know that some cultures predate the flood? Along the same lines if you require a date for the flood in order to obtain definitive evidence for cultures predating the flood, did you make your claims without definitive evidence of their validity, and do you expect others to accept those claims regardless of that absence?
By the way, please notice that I said, "I may get to that eventually."
Please also notice that I have not attempted to impose my will at all within this debate. I have simply expressed curiosity regarding your statements and dissatisfaction with your evidence for those claims. If I were trying to impose my will, I would hope that you would require of me as much evidence as necessary to prove the validity of my position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by RedVento, posted 05-29-2002 10:32 AM RedVento has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Peter, posted 05-31-2002 8:15 AM w_fortenberry has not replied

w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 21 of 165 (10627)
05-30-2002 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tranquility Base
05-30-2002 2:33 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ Most flood geologists take the flood date to be about 2500 BC via the Biblical genealogies. Of thetop of my head, everyone agrees that Moses was 1450 BC +-100y and Abraham 1950 BC +-150y and the genealogies connect Noah to Abraham via about 5 or 6 generations. So it's very easy to dat the flood scriptually.
Thank you, Tranquility Base. Through a quick calculation of the genealogies, I obtained a flood date of circa 2431 BC. Of course, that was a rushed calculation and, as such, is prone to error, but I will agree with you that a flood date of circa 2500 BC is in agreement with the Scriptural genealogies.
quote:
From my readings the well established consensus oldest civilisations on this planet are peoples more like the Sumerians and they archeaologically date to about the time of the flood. The other stuff like the Chinese etc is less certain.
Could you please provide some archeological evidence for the date of this Sumerian-like culture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tranquility Base, posted 05-30-2002 2:33 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

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