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Author Topic:   Exodus Part Two: Population of the Exodus Group.
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 24 of 142 (228609)
08-01-2005 9:29 PM


The population of Israel. My opinion.
There have been many theories on what the approximate population of Israel was in Num. 1-3, and 26.
Based on the first Census, the population of men of war (aged 20 and up) is 603,550. This constitues about 1/4 of the total population thus giving us an impression that there were 2.5 million Israelites wandering in the desert. The population of Egypt at this time (c.1250 bc)was an estimated 3-4 million. A population of 2.5 million Israelites is clearly an exaggeration of enormous proportions, when considering the locality and environment described in the texts. Israel could have taken all of Canaan and perhaps the known world with such an army.
The population of tribes mentioned in Numbers 1:
Reuben 46,500
Simeon 59,300
Gad 45,650
Judah 74,600
Issachar 54,400
Zebulun 57,400
Ephraim 40,500
Manasseh 32,200
Benjamin 35,400
Dan 62,700
Asher 41,500
Naphtali 53,400
Total: 603,550
The problem with the populations given, is that the hebrew word "1000" which is called "eleph" also meant "many" or it meant military rank, clans or families as well as the literal number 1000. For example, the tribe of Reuben was "46 eleph 500" this could mean 46 clans, or 46 troops etc.
Also, The hebrew word "aleph" was a commander of 1000's, and in the original hebrew which had no vowels, both the word "aleph" and "eleph" would have looked like: 'lph, the same.
Copyists obviously used the literal numerical meaning of "eleph" when they wrote the book of numbers whether intentionally or unintentionally.
Thus,I believe that instead of "46 eleph 500" in the tribe of Reuben the real meaning was "46 aleph 500" thus, it meant 46 commanders called "thousands" and the number of 500 men were called hundreds, and were the rounded sum of the whole army of the tribe, making the total tribal army of men 20-60 years old, either 500 or 546 men.
My view of the approximate population of Israel's army 2 years after the exodus is given below:
According to Num. 1-3
Reuben 46 aleph 500
Simeon 59 aleph 300
Gad 45 aleph 650
Judah 74 aleph 600
Issachar 54 aleph 400
Zebulun 57 aleph 400
Ephraim 40 aleph 500
Manasseh 32 aleph 200
Benjamin 35 aleph 400
Dan 62 aleph 700
Asher 41 aleph 500
Naphtali 53 aleph 400
Total: 598 aleph 5550
If we add the tribe of Levi, which according to Numbers 26, comprised of three main groups: 7500, 8600, and 6200 men aged 1 month and up, we get "22 aleph 1300" instead of 22,300 men. If 1/4 of an entire population are men of war 20 to 60 years, then half of the 1300 will be 650 men with 22 aleph(commanders).
If we add the tribe of Levi to the grand total of the previous 12 tribes we get:
598 aleph 5550
+ 22 aleph 650
-------------------------
620 aleph 6200
I believe that these numbers are not a coincidence. If we add the "aleph" who are commanders of 1000's with the "hundreds" or standard troops, we get a total army of Israel that is 6,820 men strong. But if we include them already in the rounded sum of the "hundreds" of troops we get an army of 6,200 men.
Since the army was about one fourth the size of the entire congregation, I believe Israel consisted of a population that was between 25,000 to 30,000 people divided into 13 tribes.
The initial exodus may have included several thousand more people, if we are to rely on Exodus 12:37 wich states: "And a mixed multitude also went up with them, and flocks and herds--a very large number of cattle."
Whatever the case, it seems that who ever first exaggerated the story exaggerated the population 100 times what it really was.
25,000 is much more likely than 2.5 million.

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 Message 25 by ramoss, posted 08-02-2005 8:40 AM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 26 of 142 (228883)
08-02-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ramoss
08-02-2005 8:40 AM


Re: The population of Israel. My opinion.
Yes, I agree. But it's not like we have excavated the entire Negev and deserts of Sinai.
But even the best possible candidates for Kadesh Barnea yielded no Middle Bronze age or Late Bronze age occupation according to archaeologists. Egyptian mining camps in southern Sinai were some of the only confirmed inhabited areas of that time period of the Late Bronze age c.1300-1200 bc.
But still, I suspect it will be hard to find evidence of Nomadic herdsmen in the desert 3,200 years ago.
Since the book of Numbers and probably all of the 5 books of the old testament were written around 800-500 bc and based on older texts and oral accounts, it is obvious that the Exodus probably did not happen exactly how the OT described it--there was probably a natural tendancy to embelish the facts and make the stories more interesting for the reader.

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 Message 28 by John Williams, posted 08-02-2005 5:38 PM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 28 of 142 (228935)
08-02-2005 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by John Williams
08-02-2005 3:05 PM


Re: The population of Israel. My opinion.
As a follow up, by my computations of the tribes mentioned in Numbers 1,
It seems that the total tribes numbered bewteen 5,000 and 25,000. This is based off my idea that eleph and aleph were both mistranslated as the literal numerical meaning of "1000" when in reality it meant commander, soldier, or armed man.
I believe the idea that there were 5,000 people could be argued if, instead of in the tribe of Reuben "46 aleph 500" instead of 5 hundreds, it was really 5 tens, or 50 instead of 500.
Thus, Reuben should have been "46 aleph 50." If we add the 46 to the 50 we get the total army population for the tribe of reuben then multiply it.
Reuben 46 aleph 50
Simeon 59 aleph 30
Gad 45 aleph 65
Judah 74 aleph 60
Issachar 54 aleph 40
Zebulun 57 aleph 40
Ephraim 40 aleph 50
Manasseh 32 aleph 20
Benjamin 35 aleph 40
Dan 62 aleph 70
Asher 41 aleph 50
Naphtali 53 aleph 40
Total: 598 aleph 555
=1153 total army X 4 = total population of 4,612 people.
Unfortuneatly I find problems with shrinking the number down to this level. I find the 25,000 to be the best candidate.

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John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 29 of 142 (229421)
08-03-2005 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by John Williams
08-02-2005 5:38 PM


Re: The population of Israel. My opinion.
The problem of trying to find out how many Israelites there were after the exodus is never going to be explained with satisfaction if we consider that most of the numbers given in the old and new testaments and are figurative and often exaggerated.
Therefore, in Ex. 12:37 when it says, "about 600,000 men on foot, besides women and children" when refering to the exodus, it is probably 6,000.

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 Message 31 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2005 2:40 AM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 32 of 142 (299510)
03-29-2006 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Nighttrain
10-28-2005 2:40 AM


Re: The population of Israel. My opinion.
300 probably.

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 Message 33 by John Williams, posted 03-30-2006 12:35 AM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 33 of 142 (299513)
03-30-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by John Williams
03-29-2006 11:54 PM


Overall population of Israel? 25,000 I say
It's my theory that the Hebrew term "eleph" meaning "thousand" was written as "lp" and was identical to the hebrew word "alluph" meaning "chief" or "head" or "clan". Similarly, the terminology of "thousand" or eleph, in the original hebrew seems to suggest it was a military term before taking on the more exact meaning of a literal and numerical 1000.
Similarly,the Century was a Roman company of troops (anywhere from 15 to 150) and was commanded by a "Centurian" but as time whent on the term developed gradually the numerical meaning of a literal 100.
I feel that there are many copyist errors, editings, misinterpretations and some exaggerations in large numerical values all throughout the old testament.
However, it may very well be that the original kernal of truth to the Census tradition (Numb.1) was based upon a counting system that went something like this:
Reuben 46 500
Simeon 59 300
Gad 45 650
Judah 74 600
Issachar 54 400
Zebulun 57 400
Ephraim 40 500
Manasseh 32 200
Benjamin 35 400
Dan 62 700
Asher 41 500
Naphtali 53 400
-------
Total: 598 lp 5550
I believe that this number means that there were 598 total clans, or divisions, with 5550 able bodied men 20 and up.
The idea of "lp" meaning family or clan, has particular persuasivness to me, since each clan would have an average of 9 men if you divide 5550 by 598.
My theory is that copyists, semi-over enthusiasticly combined the total as 598 THOUSAND and added the remaining 5550 to make a grand total of 603,550 fighting men. We know for a fact that my theory, as outrageous as it may seem, atleast makes more sense than actually believing there were really over 3 million Israelites in Canaan surrounded by Seven nations that were GREATER than themselves!3 million Israelites would imply that Canaan had something like 25 million inhabitants at the time, which is clearly a false fact. Canaan, c. 1400 to 1200 bc probably had 200,000 to 250,000 inhabitants MAXIMUM. (and that likely included my estimated 25,000 Hebrew/Israelites).
Therefore, I have a hunch that Israel was only one eighth or one tenth the actual population of Canaan during the Exodus. Indeed they would have been a minority population. And yes, one could say it is a miracle that such a minority could take over a land inhabited by diverse people that outnumber them 8 to 1.
Bottom line, I say there were 25,000 Isralites total, and the fighting force was about 5550 men.

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 Message 32 by John Williams, posted 03-29-2006 11:54 PM John Williams has replied

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John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 34 of 142 (299514)
03-30-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by John Williams
03-30-2006 12:35 AM


Re: Overall population of Israel? 25,000 I say
Oops I just realized I already posted that same info a long time ago.

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John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 35 of 142 (320816)
06-12-2006 1:35 PM


Large numbers in the Book of Numbers
The exaggerated numbers of the exodus population among others, was probably elaborated upon by the P source, or Priestly code of 500 bc post exilic time period, these priets understood the symbology and reverence of large numbers and took off with it. I now believe that a 25,000 population using a 6,000 man army is still far too many people to wander in a desert for a many years.
I find the 6,000 figure to represent the entire Exodus party of whome there were men, beside children, and this population may have included Hebrews,Shosu, and mixed peoples, possibly kenites and metal-smith workers who fled into Edom, and Midian (N. Arabia). Egypt would still have had control of much of Sinai at the time.
Furthermore, this Exodus party of of whome Hebrews and slaves remember (1250bc) under the weakening Egypt, may have meshed with other Hebrews and Israelites who themselves remember an Exodus from Egypt 300 years earlier during the (Hyksos)Amurru expulsion from Egypt by Ahmoses. These traditions may have been tied together to represent one complete History in 700 bc when J and E sources were combined.

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 Message 37 by ReverendDG, posted 06-12-2006 7:51 PM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 38 of 142 (321224)
06-13-2006 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ReverendDG
06-12-2006 7:51 PM


Re: Large numbers in the Book of Numbers
I belive the 'Hyksos' were largely Amorites, or Canaanites from Syrio-Palestine. I furthermore believe that the ethnic afiliation of "Hebrews" didn't come about until 900-700 bc or later. Infact, I contend the Hebrews were simply a geographicaly broad social class, and likely one and the same as the early Habiri or Apiru who are mentioned some 200 times in ancient sources from 2150 to 1160 bc. I consider the Israelites to be one and the same as the Canaanites and Arameans (archaeologically speaking) up until 1100-1000 bc. The story of Joseph and Jacob in Egypt does, in my opinion, have deep roots in the Hyksos era c. 1700-1550, and I find this connection to have historical support from some of the more ancient historians including Josephus, who quotes Manetho. The Hyksos controlled Lower Egypt and moved its residence from Memphis to it's final capital Avaris where they ruled for a century. It was the Southern Egyptian nationals who waged war on these Arameans, and eventually captured and expelled them.
Apiru worked as laborers and slaves in Egypt especially after Thutmose III's conquest of Canaan in 1480's bc. and even later still in 1290's while Rameses the great built his city of Pi-Rameses.
It's well known that by the late 19th-20th dynasty c.1200, Egypt was loosing control of Canaan, and by 1160 they had no share in Canaan.
It was during this time that Israel rose up as nation. Israel as a people were known to exist c. 1210 bc under Merenptah's short purge.
There were probably many different escapes or attempted escapes from Egypt--whom later semitic Hebrews and slaves of 18th-20th dynasty egypt would recollect. But none has ever been as large or notable as the Hyksos expulsion of c.1550. The city of Avars held some 250,000 people and the population involved with this expulsion must have been enormous. I feel that such an event would be remembered by the descendents of these Hyksos, the Israelites and their neighbors.

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 Message 39 by Brian, posted 06-14-2006 9:36 AM John Williams has replied
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John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 42 of 142 (321583)
06-14-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Brian
06-14-2006 9:36 AM


Re: Large numbers in the Book of Numbers
quote:"The Habiru/'apiru were a social class, whereas Hebrew is a ethnic group."
It's true that Hebrew is an ethnic tongue today.
I feel the Hebrew/Habiru were originally just a social class within the Israelites and their neighbors east and west. The name later evolved to include an ethnic group synonymous with Israel c. 700-500 bc. Furthermore Israel itself constituted a diverse populous whose origins were Canaanitic, Amoritic, Egyptian, and Hurrian among others.
The fact that the bible traditions mention the Hebrews making mud-bricks in the nile delta, and building the cities of Pithum and Raamses, seems to atleast have some plausible connection to the well known records of Apiru laborers in Pi-Rameses and other chief cities c. 18th-19th dynasty.
Furthermore, in genesis 14:13, it mentions "Abram the Hebrew", and we later learn that this Abram is a wandering chieftan with 318 warriors, waging war on various Mesopotamian princes. This description of Abram is temptingly accurate in it's parallels to the vagrant Khabiru/Sa.Gaz of the same time period, and even the menacing Apiru of the later Amarna era fit this picture splendidly.
quote:"What's your evidence for this?"
1200-1100 bc. at this time-period well known settlements in the Judaean hills and proposed Reubenite settlement of Trans-Jordan can be attributed to the people called israel--and indeed the Merenptah Stele seems to pinpoint Israel in the Shephela aswell.
quote:"This isn't undisputed though, we do not know for certain if this is the same Israel that is mentioned in the Bible."
Well, I'd rather put my bet on it than believe there were 2 Israels. But you're right, a bit of faith has to be put into the Merenptah account that this was the same Israel of the bible.

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 Message 39 by Brian, posted 06-14-2006 9:36 AM Brian has replied

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John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 49 of 142 (394903)
04-13-2007 11:31 PM


Exodus Population
In terms of approximate population, one can only guess that the siege of Avaris c. 1540 BC, must have led to the subsequent exodus of "many thousands" of Hyksos royalty and their slaves, persued or escorted by Pharoah Ahmoses (Moses) to Canaan and syria via the Sinai peninsular strip(aka "Wandering years myth?").
Avaris is thought to have had a population of some 100,000 or more in the 1600's BC.

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John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 105 of 142 (396687)
04-21-2007 6:26 PM


Exodus Myth
Objective science tells us that millions of Hebrew migrating from Egypt to Canaan, is clearly exaggeration--and should not be taken literally, but the general theme is historically accurate.
Egypt in 2007, has an estimated population of 83 million. New Kingdom Egypt, over 3,000 years ago, had an estimated population of between 3 and 4 million. Canaan at this time may have fluctuated around 100,000 to perhaps 300,000 during the early iron age.
The Hebrew Exodus myth does have enough historical earmarks which do pinpoint it's origins to a rather broad but traceable period of the Imperial New Kingdom era of Egypt.
The key is to find out how many recorded expulsions and migrations of foreigners occurred during this era of Egyptian history, between 1600 and 1000 BC. and to find what parallels between these migrations and the Exodus story.
Earliest opinion suggests the Hyksos era as the first historical setting for the exodus narrative. We have Asiatics settling in the eastern branch of the Nile Delta and ruling from Avaris (near Ramses, later called the region of Geshem) for 100 years. The subsequent warfare and then deportations of these Asiatics from the Delta to Syria-Canaan over a period of several years, and the liberation of Egypt through the pharaoh Amose, does seem compelling evidence for an early exodus tradition among the Canaanites.
But there is also evidence of perhaps smaller scale, more gradual migrations and influx between Asiatics and Egypt during the Imperial and Rameside era. Thousands of war captives were allegedly taken to Egypt from Canaan and Syria between 1500 and 1200 BC. among these were Epiru and Shosu, likely central highland ancestors of the later Hebrews, Judaeans, and Edomites.
The Hebrew exodus story is a condensed, essentially Canaanite version of the general warfare, occupation, enslavement, and deportations by Egyptians during their Imperial expansion under four-hundred years of tough rule, beginning with the Hyksos expulsion, of whom the later Israelites seem to identify as their ancestors.
In conclusion, there may have been essentially, several large migrations of Asiatics from Egypt to Canaan during this long period, but none is known to have been as large and politically influential as the exodus migration of the Hyksos dynasty, and the abandonment of Avaris, a metropolis once housing 100,000 people.
The largest numbers involved with the Hyksos migrations from Egypt to Southern Canaan were probably gradual and over a period of several years. The abandonment of Avaris though, may have included many thousands at a time, and were possibly escorted by Egyptian garrisons --to ensure that they did not escape into the wilderness of the Negev and Sinai.

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 Message 108 by IamJoseph, posted 07-03-2007 6:35 AM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 113 of 142 (408655)
07-04-2007 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Nimrod
06-26-2007 12:24 AM


Re: Where is the archaeological evidence?
Well, is there any archaeological evidence that Amenhotep II brought back 89,600 prisoners from Canaan to Egypt around 1420 BC? Certainly a number so large would have some hard evidence.

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 Message 131 by Nimrod, posted 07-06-2007 9:49 AM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 114 of 142 (408660)
07-04-2007 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by IamJoseph
07-03-2007 6:35 AM


Re: Exodus Myth
Yes I am aware of the Merneptah stele.
As far as I know, the Canaanites were a culture who've always been intermingled with foreign peoples, Amorites, Hurrites, Hittites, who often settled in the land, not to mention their vassalage to Egypt for roughly four hundred years.
The reference to 'WE WERE AS GRASSHOPPERS IN THEIR EYES' is a allegorical comparison of size and strength. Infact, this is refering to a S. Canaanite tribe named Anaq, which likely corresponds to the "ly-Anaq" (people of Anaq) mentioned in the 19th century BC Egyptian Execration texts. The Bible account has them ruled by three leaders, Ahiman, Sheshi, and Tolmai. The Execration texts list three leaders of "ly Anaq", Akirum, Erum, and Abi-Yaminu. The names are certainly Canaanite, as Akirum is an early version of the name Hiram.
What this shows is that a Canaanite tribe called Anaq, was known to exist from as early as 1800 BC and as late as the invading Hebrews claim to have conquered them. This infact is a reverse of your statement that the Canaanites were effectively replaced by invaders. Certainly not all were.

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 Message 117 by IamJoseph, posted 07-04-2007 9:52 AM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 126 of 142 (408928)
07-06-2007 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by IamJoseph
07-04-2007 9:52 AM


Re: Exodus Myth
The 89,000 was a tribute of prisoners Amenhotep II claims to have brought back from his conquest in Canaan, c. 1420 BC. Certainly Egypt enslaved thousands of Asiatics in the New Kingdom, even if these numbers were sometimes inflated. The seventy souls in the Exodus story is a rough figure, and the 600,000 is likely symbolic, as "six" is the number of man in Hebrew numerology. Three million is an absurd figure, and wholly unsupported for the ancient region of the LB population of Syro-Canaan.
As to the Merneptah Stele, this is certainly strong proof of a tribe called Israel in the hills of c. Canaan 1200 BC, hinting at some genuine history in the OT narratives.
Amorite king Og a survivor of the flood is later Hebrew lore, not incorporated in the OT. The original texts call him a Rap'im, a title that parallels the Ugaritic R'pum, a generic term for warrior gods/kings. The 13th century BC Ugarit texts do seem to place this cult in S. Syria near Astartu, the capital of king Og in the OT text--evidence to support the biblical mention of Bashan, as "land of the Rap'im!" 1st century Historian Josephus considers the Rap'im and Greek Titanes, or Gigantes, to be synonymous. The OT seems to use the name Anaq, and Rap'im interchangeable, but Anaq was originally an ancient tribe or cult indigenous to S. Canaan, known for strength and stature. Perhaps the megalithic dolmens and tombs of the Jodran valley and Hebron region helped inspire the legends of giants, or more likely, larger than average men like Goliath and his elites, who were probably not much larger than modern WWE heavyweights like Paul Wight, Dalip Singh Rana,or Glen Jacobs. Size and strength were important in ancient close combat warfare, and genuine giants were feared and revered.

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