Exodus Part Two: Population of the Exodus Group.

well, i've seen a few different variations in this thread. which one is more accurate to the original source? no no, i'm not suggesting it is. but those are the things that would have to be true before we can establish that they are related words -- if those aren't the case, then it's not.in other words, if it's "-b-r-" the case is alot better than if it's "-p-r-." and people keep refer to them as "habiru" which sounds like it might be a cognate. i take it this is an inaccurate rendering? i mean, in the source?

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Habiru is still mentioned because the term is too well entrenched in the literature, as it mistranslated for decades. As I said the HBR root is now redundant and ALL translations of HaBiRu should now read -p-r.The source that JW fails to provide, although he is accurate to claim, is to be found in Papyrus Leiden 348, JW even provides the translated word as ”Apiru in his post. Here’s the reference, it is from
this site, as are all subsequent quotes.the 'Apiru who drag stone for the great pylon of the [building?] 'Rameses-II-Beloved-Of-Truth Here are some of the more famous references to the ”Apiru’, you can see that ”Habiru’ has now been dropped.From the Mari letters (conventionally 18th century BCE)"Yapah-Adad has made ready the settlement Zallul on this side of the bank of the Euphrates River, and with two thousand troops of the Hapiru of the land is dwelling in that city" Execration text (late 12th or early 13th dynasty)"the ruler of Pella, 'Apiru-'Anu..." Brooklyn Papyrus (from the reign of Sobekhotep III, mid 13th dynasty)Amongst a list of domestic slaves we have the name 'Apiru-Rishpu. Originating from the reign of Thutmose III, the papyrus from the time of Rameses II"bring in the horses ... or an 'Apir may pass by [and take] them" From the Asiatic campaign report of Amen-hotep II"...princes of Retenu: 127; brothers of princes: 179; 'Apiru: 3,600; living Shasu: 15,200; Kharu: 36,300; living Neges: 15,070; adherents thereof: 30,652..." The Beth-Shan stela of Seti I"On this day, lo [one came to tell] his [majesty]: The 'Apiru of Mount Yarmuta, with Teger ... [have ari]sen in attack upon the Asiatics of Rehem" Rameses III, the towns of Amon's estate, Heliopolis section"Warriors, sons of (foreign) princes, maryannu, 'Apiru, and people settled who are in this place: 2093 persons"IMO I think the term ”Habiru’ is used for convenience, as it was so entrenched in the literature, similar to the term 'Hittite' being used out of context for the Boghazkoy people. In JW’s source it is translated as ”Apiru, he even uses this term. ALL Egyptian sources use ”Apiru.Brian.

alright, thanks for the info.

In terms of approximate population, one can only guess that the siege of Avaris c. 1540 BC, must have led to the subsequent exodus of "many thousands" of Hyksos royalty and their slaves, persued or escorted by Pharoah Ahmoses (Moses) to Canaan and syria via the Sinai peninsular strip(aka "Wandering years myth?").Avaris is thought to have had a population of some 100,000 or more in the 1600's BC.

Hi, John, WB. Regardless of how the Exodus population is calculated, we are stuck with the Bible proposal of circa 2.5 million. But no one mentions what happens after the next 480 years. Or did Yahweh turn off the sperm tap? Chapter, verse?

going a little off topic here but are there ANY creationists/Christians in this forum at all? cuz i only see answers from Evolutionists

Many of us are Christian Creationists that support evolution. But even as Christians we know that the story of the Exodus is simply folktale and is not a realistic history.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

well i wasnt talkin about this topic, i was merely thinking of how many people here dont support the bible and are still christians, the center of the bible is christ yet you people throw the bible away and pick what you want to be truth

LOLWe believe the bible, but we value the Words GOD actually wrote higher than anything man wrote like the Bibles. We understand that there is not even one Bible, one set of books that all Christians accept, not just multiple translations but not even one uniform Canon. We understand that when a story in the Bible conflicts with the truth, as the Exodus story does, that we must accept the truth over the myth.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

but let me propose something, what if the entire bible was inerrantly the word of God, entirely?then let me propose something else too, we are born in this world and die in this world, we know only of this world and ITS truths, what makes you think that if a Being greater than us would be overpowered by our miniscule intelligence created by this world? i am to say what IF the bible was word for word inspired by God (who has truths that YOU cannot possibly fathom) what makes you think that this is not TRUTH? tossing aside your Earthly beliefs to be logic. Earth logic and God logic are different, Logic to him is greater than Logic to you is. Remember God can put a camel through the eye of a needle, why cant every fact in Exodus be true? because you use the EARTH laws and logic to pick at the bible, but the bible wasnt created by MAN it was created by GOD someoen who doesnt FALL in the logic of man, another reason why for over 2000 years its STILL being discussed about. WHY? because we are going in circles, enter a deeeep forest without a compass you get lost instantly and never find your way back. thats what we are doing when we pick at the bible, we are trying to find our way out of the forest by looking at the ground, it would never happen that way.Edited by Juraikken, : No reason given.

Then God is not very bright or capable of keeping his story straight. It could be if God is Loki the Trickster and is just out to fool folk by then faking all the physical evidence available.But I don't happen to think that God is just some little trickster out to fool folk. Come on. There isn't even one Bible. And all of it was just written by Man, edited by men, compiled by men, redacted by men. Further it was men who made the various decisions about what books would be in the Bible and even there, they could not agree. The smallest Canon has only 5 books while the largest Canon has over eighty.And you are partially right, the Bible is nothing but a Map, it is not the Territory, and like any Map the wise traveler tests the Map against reality and where the Map is wrong, trusts the truth of reality, the actual Territory.The Exodus story as told in the Bible simply is not supported by the physical evidence.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Then God is not very bright or capable of keeping his story straight.

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OK. so let me get this, your looking at the bible and analyzing it with your human logic. but its not human logic it is divinely logical. being "bright" to you is the maximum capacity of a human being, but God is not Bright, he is greater THAN bright no HUMAN can word.

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It could be if God is Loki the Trickster and is just out to fool folk by then faking all the physical evidence available.

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But I don't happen to think that God is just some little trickster out to fool folk.

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i dont either lol. but you have entered into this subject a very incorrect term. "all the physical evidence" now look, God cannot be proven through physical evidence, so why propose physical evidence for this? its wrong. like i said you pick and chose what to act upon, if you wish to use Physical evidence for Exodus then use physical evidence for God. dont pick on things you CAN prove wrong and ignore others you cant.My point is also that physical evidence is not facts because for all you know the facts that you have can be wrong, God can make it all wrong, he can make Carbon dates wrong JUST so you would go to God through faith alone. thats why its so difficult to believe in him, why? cuz he makes everything else seem so believable, THAT is the way to truth, so that YOU would look through all the fakeness of today and find God through FAITH alone.

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Come on. There isn't even one Bible. And all of it was just written by Man, edited by men, compiled by men, redacted by men. Further it was men who made the various decisions about what books would be in the Bible and even there, they could not agree. The smallest Canon has only 5 books while the largest Canon has over eighty.

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And you are partially right, the Bible is nothing but a Map, it is not the Territory, and like any Map the wise traveler tests the Map against reality and where the Map is wrong, trusts the truth of reality, the actual Territory.

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The Exodus story as told in the Bible simply is not supported by the physical evidence.

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written by man but inspired by God, is Moses to not believe the bush because it WASNT GOD? no God spoke to him THROUGH the bush. same with the bible God teached us THROUGH the people who wrote the bible. Yes i admit the bible was compiled by men, but how long did it take, tell me that. and HOW did they compile it? these people had knowledge of the Faith and knowledge of the people who ACTUALLY wrote it to the extent more than any christian scolar today, they took countless months to bring about the truth from teh incorrect. just cuz tehy took out some books doesnt mean its not truth now, what they took out was people who didnt like what Jesus did, or even God. Take the Gospel of Judas for example, he made a book that made him the hero! why? cuz he didnt like Jesus cuz Jesus said he betrayed him.Compiled by men who worked tediously to put the true bible that had been lost in array among fakes, together.but honestly are you to say that the people who created the bible without the inspiration of God are the most intelligent people on earth? you know why i say this? because it is STILL being discussed abotu and ALL arguments stay in a standstill. i am not to say that the one thing that causes wars and arguments for over 2000 years is MAN MADE, because man is not that smart. if man is SO smart then why does teh bible have a great longevity among men? among analysts, among criticizers, among all people? how is it that this thing has lived SO long and still has not neither won nor lost? it is not human.

Exactly. If God is only Loki the Trickster, a liar and a cheat, then what you say could be true.But I do not worship a God that is only a liar and a trickster. How silly. Come on. If the Exodus was something that really happened it would leave physical evidence. That is why you use physical evidence to test the story's accuracy.GOD is by definition supernatural. Since GOD is not natural, you cannot use physical evidence to test for the existence of GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

God is not a trickster, because God never said "what you find on earth IS facts" he never said that! WE say that, cuz we think THEY are facts! lolhe is not tricking you when he creates teh false world, and NEVER says that what you see is FACTS!!!!! lol

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How silly. Come on. If the Exodus was something that really happened it would leave physical evidence. That is why you use physical evidence to test the story's accuracy.

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GOD is by definition supernatural. Since GOD is not natural, you cannot use physical evidence to test for the existence of GOD.

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see? but then we go into this "physical evidence" that we think is to be truth again. what makes you think the physocal evidence you have in your hands is the absolute truth? you cant, all you can say is "this is the best i got" your argument stands on ANY other subject but cant hold water with a supernatural subject of God intervening with something.so true, God is not natural. but whats to say that what took place in Exodus IS natural? the burning bush isnt natural but Moses going to Egypt is, the separation of the waters isnt natural but Moses being taken in by pharaoh IS, so what gives US the power to discern what is truth and fallacy? have YOU been there when it was made? noSO, the bible is... "then best i got" it is what it says it is becuase its all you have.

But honestly, the Tao, Rig Veda, the Bhagavad Gita, and the primary texts in Bhuddism were all written before Christ was born. So were the works of Plato, Aristotle, and Confucius. Why have these works had such great longevity among men? Among analysts, among criticizers, among {most} all people? How is it that these things have lived so long and still neither won nor lost?It appears very human.