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Author Topic:   The Bible has no contradictions
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 138 of 221 (597924)
12-25-2010 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by frako
12-20-2010 11:41 AM


Graven Images
quote:
Whatever you do, don't make graven images

Exodus 20:4- Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Deuteronomy 4:23- Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

But let me tell you the proper way to make some graven images.

Exodus 25:18- And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:19- And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

Exodus 25:20- And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.


Hopefully you read the issue surrounding those verses and not just a contradiction list.

Pecel, which is translated as graven image, refers to something carved and then worshiped. IOW, idols. It isn't referring to just anything carved for decoration or used in the worship of YHWH such as the cherubim.

Graven image refers to an idol carved in wood or stone that is worshiped as a god or in place of a god.

Show me that the Priestly writer in Exodus and the Deuteronomist were speaking of general decorative carvings and not objects made to worship.

Per the Documentary Hypothesis, the Priestly writer wrote Exodus 20:4 and Exodus 25. Notice the cherubims are beaten or hammered work, not carved.

This isn't a contradiction.

Edited by purpledawn, : ABE: Graven

Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by frako, posted 12-20-2010 11:41 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by arachnophilia, posted 12-26-2010 5:45 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 139 of 221 (597960)
12-26-2010 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by frako
12-20-2010 11:41 AM


Psalms and Proverbs
quote:
Psalms 58:10- The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked

Proverbs 24:17- Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:


Psalms is a song expressing what the people felt. The song isn't telling people to rejoice.

The proverbs are wisdom gathered through the ages.

So one is telling us it isn't wise to gloat (Proverbs) and the other shows us that people still feel like gloating when the enemy suffers (Psalms).

This isn't a contradiction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by frako, posted 12-20-2010 11:41 AM frako has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 140 of 221 (597966)
12-26-2010 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by frako
12-20-2010 11:41 AM


Contradiction or Mistake
quote:
Ezra 2:6- The children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve.

Nehemiah 7:11- The Children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab two thousand eight hundred and eighteen


Did you compare the lists of returnees? There are many differences, but I wouldn't call them contradictions. We have no way of knowing if the numbers matched when originally written or not. Neither list adds up to the total given and we don't know if they did when originally written either. Given the number of times this story has probably been copied by hand, I would assume mistakes before contradictions.

Also if you notice there is a slight difference in the presentation. Nehemiah supposedly located the record of the genealogies and copied what was written in it. Ezra doesn't make that statement. The author doesn't say that Ezra and Nehemiah were pulling the information from the same place. What Nehemiah found may have been the final list.

Just because the lists don't match, doesn't mean it's a contradiction.

quote:
2 Samuel 8:4- And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots.

1 Chronicles 18:4- And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots.


Same issue. We don't have the original to know if the numbers were actually different. We still have the possibility for ancient "typos".

Chronicles is a later writing and may have had more information at the time of writing.

I see these more as copying mistakes or just differences in available data. These are not contradictions.

Does the overall point of the story or event contradict the overall point of the other author?

Edited by purpledawn, : Hit wrong button


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by frako, posted 12-20-2010 11:41 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 6:08 AM purpledawn has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 143 of 221 (597970)
12-26-2010 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by frako
12-26-2010 6:08 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
quote:
First of all if the book was supposedly inspired by god one would expect that no such "mistakes" would be in it. You know all knowing all powerful god inspiring wrong numbers to a person kinda sounds strange dont you think unless you think only parts of the bible are inspired then i would politely ask you witch parts and how do you know ?
1. This is the accuracy and inerrancy thread, not faith and belief. This is a science forum. Mistakes are not contradictions. Make up your mind which you are presenting.

The differences may be ancient "typos" or different resources.

quote:
Secondly if i told you i have 7 children and after that i would tell you i have 6 children would those statements contradict each other i would say that they would. If i have 7 i have 7 children and not 6, and if i have 6 children i have 6 not 7.
Yes and no. I understand what you are trying to show and in that case, yes you are contradicting yourself. But if you think about it, if you actually have 7 children, then you also have 6 children. So your second statement isn't incorrect, but it isn't the full count. Just an odd thought.

What you presented were different authors. You didn't present one author contradicting previous information. There is a difference.

quote:
And im not even going to respond to your latter post about carving and beating something in to shape lol.
There was more to that post than that.

Of course, I'm not surprised. You don't tend to provide substance for a real discussion.

Have a great New Year!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 6:08 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 8:06 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 146 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 8:09 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 12-26-2010 11:43 AM purpledawn has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 147 of 221 (597984)
12-26-2010 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by frako
12-26-2010 7:58 AM


Re: Graven Images
This is a science forum. Make your case with evidence, not just repetition and odd scenarios.

quote:
the second clearly shows what item to make for worship, my guess is cherubims are clearly either from heaven above (angels).
The writer is not presenting the cherubim as something worshiped as a god or in place of a god. They are part of the temple decor.

Exodus 25:22
And there I will meet with thee and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel

quote:
Lol so tell me one nation ever that carved something and then worshiped that thing not the thing it represents.
Same as above.

quote:
No cultures actually worshiped the statutes or the like, they worshiped what they represented, a many armed woman statue represented a Hindu god it was that god they worshiped not the statue. I think it is illogical to claim that your god wanted no one to worship a statute or idol because no one ever did. He wanted no idols at one point and then he wanted idols for him clear and simple.
We are looking at what is written and whether the writer is contradicting himself. We aren't talking about whether people followed what was written or not. Show me that the cherubim were idols.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 7:58 AM frako has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 148 of 221 (597990)
12-26-2010 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by frako
12-26-2010 8:06 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
quote:
A so one claiming the number x
and the other claiming the number y is not a contradiction of information because clearly if one news channel reports 1000 dead people and the other 1 million none of them are wrong and no report contradicts the other. And both are still reliable news networks they just got their information differently one went out in the field the other made it up who is who does not matter and they are both reliable. And speak the true word of god or reality in this case.
Please address the argument I made in Message 140. News channels are reporting events at relatively the same time. If two reporters are independently reporting information and the information isn't the same, then one or both of them are potentially wrong. They aren't necessarily contradicting each other. They may have different sources of information. One could also have had updated info the other didn't. There's no need for info to be made up to be incorrect or outdated.

In this discussion we are dealing with written accounts. One is about Ezra and the other about Nehemiah. Did you read the accounts? As I said, the author doesn't say that Ezra and Nehemiah were pulling the information from the same place. What Nehemiah found may have been a later or final list. I would assume copying mistakes before different sources of info, but I wouldn't call the differences in the lists a contradiction. Mistakes or different info, yes; contradiction, no. Since we don't have the originals, we can't tell whether the numbers originally agreed or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 8:06 AM frako has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 149 of 221 (597992)
12-26-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by frako
12-26-2010 8:09 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
quote:
GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.
Think before you write. The fact that I didn't present an argument concerning those verses should tell you that I probably agree the later teaching presented by the author of Peter seems to be a contradiction.

No, not a mistake.

Learn the difference.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 8:09 AM frako has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 151 of 221 (598030)
12-27-2010 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by ringo
12-26-2010 11:43 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
Unfortunately the originator isn't participating anymore. So we probably won't have anyone presenting the apologetics. The originator didn't claim the Bible had no errors.

There are enough true contradictions without flopping out useless number differences. Since we don't have the originals, copyist errors are the obvious answers and even I came up with other possible reasons that don't deal with doctrine. These types of discrepancies don't impact the point of the writing. Save these types of discrepancies for when someone claims there are absolutely no errors in our current copies of the Bible.

The apologetic response is copyist errors. So if their response to why it isn't a contradiction is because it is a copyist error, then they are looking at the literal meaning of contradiction. As I said, an error is not a contradiction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 12-26-2010 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-27-2010 10:26 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply
 Message 153 by jar, posted 12-27-2010 10:42 AM purpledawn has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 157 of 221 (598111)
12-28-2010 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
12-27-2010 10:42 AM


Re: The real problem
quote:
The real problem is the relatively modern idea that the Bible is one book, one story. It's not, and was never meant to be seen as one book or one story. Most of the so called contradictions are simply due to thinking that what is in one Book of the Bible should correspond to what is in any other Book. People even refer to the "Books of the Bible" but somehow fail to make the connection that "Yup, they are separate books by separate authors who each had their own story to tell; and many of the books are really two or more different stories by different authors with often contradicting theologies that have just been smushed together."
Exactly! Many of the books weren't written simultaneously or even in the same century. The writings evolve as the religion does. I haven't looked to see if one author actually contradicts himself. Of course the problem there is that copyists could still have made changes to fit the political and religious needs of the time.
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 158 of 221 (598118)
12-28-2010 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by hERICtic
12-27-2010 8:25 PM


Roman Time Keeping
I searched the web from various angles and this article seems to clear things up a bit concerning how the Romans supposedly viewed time.

Roman Time Keeping

From what I could tell, at one point the Romans did use the sunset to sunset view of the day, but that changed at some point. Hard to tell when, but it didn't seem to change the way the daylight hours were addressed. They apparently still started the divisions with sunrise. See bottom of the article.

IOW, even though the day started at midnight the "first hour" is still dawn. The originator's argument in Message 78 doesn't really hold water.

He missed the whole point that Mark and John are speaking of completely different days. The time argument is irrelevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by hERICtic, posted 12-27-2010 8:25 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by hERICtic, posted 12-28-2010 10:23 AM purpledawn has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 160 of 221 (598126)
12-28-2010 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by hERICtic
12-28-2010 10:23 AM


Re: Roman Time Keeping
quote:
I'm not sure why you feel the time element is irrelevant. Its a contradiction thread. John has a different time when Jesus was placed upon the cross than than does Mark. Mark has the third hour, John the sixth. Hence the contradiction.
If one man is talking about Saturday and another is talking about Tuesday, what does the time matter. They aren't talking about the same day.

The author of John has Jesus die at the same time as the Paschal Lamb. So Jesus died before the Passover Meal. In Mark, the author has Jesus die after the Passover Meal.

That was the contradiction that nator brought up in Message 51. See her response in Message 98.

When we're talking about two completely different days, the time issue is irrelevant. Even if they had all given the same time of the day, it still isn't the same time because it's a different day.

Understand? The author of John just flat out wrote a different story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by hERICtic, posted 12-28-2010 10:23 AM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by hERICtic, posted 12-28-2010 2:08 PM purpledawn has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 162 of 221 (598142)
12-28-2010 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by hERICtic
12-28-2010 2:08 PM


Re: Roman Time Keeping
Apparently you don't understand. My comments were in relation to the originators response to nator. The time differences are irrelevant concerning the contradiction nator presented.

IMO, when stories conflict, it doesn't make sense to address line items, but that's your choice. Enjoy!


This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1684 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 166 of 221 (603705)
02-07-2011 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Theflyingsorcerer
02-06-2011 4:59 PM


Jeremiah - God's Anger
quote:
Book of Job. "For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and shall not keep anger forever."

Book of job, a bit further along; God speaking. "Thou hast kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever."


These verses are actually in Jeremiah.

In Jeremiah 3:12, the message is for Israel and in Jeremiah 17:4, the message is for Judah.

Read the stories.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Theflyingsorcerer, posted 02-06-2011 4:59 PM Theflyingsorcerer has not yet responded

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