Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8950 total)
29 online now:
DrJones*, dwise1, jar, PaulK, ringo, Tangle, Theodoric (7 members, 22 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,122 Year: 22,158/19,786 Month: 721/1,834 Week: 221/500 Day: 49/69 Hour: 2/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Bible has no contradictions
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2857 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 128 of 221 (597084)
12-19-2010 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Conspirator
03-15-2003 11:41 AM


Yes, I know this is an old thread. But recently, I have been reading as many threads as possible, out of pure interest and hopefully to learn a few things.

Conspirator, an inactive member wrote this:

"According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight. The Jewish 24 hour period in the evening at 6 p.m. and the morning of that day began at 6 a.m. Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9 a.m. John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour. This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers."

Now, every apologist website I have frequented claims the same, regarding Roman time. Midnight, the starting point. Yet outside of these sites, I have yet to find a single reference that Romans followed time in this manner. I have read in a few places that the Romans followed time similiar to the Jews, daylight the starting point. Also, when did the recording of the hours start at midnight?

Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Conspirator, posted 03-15-2003 11:41 AM Conspirator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 12-19-2010 4:13 PM hERICtic has responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2857 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 130 of 221 (597100)
12-19-2010 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jon
12-19-2010 4:13 PM


Re: Reconciling Crucifixion Accounts
Thanks for the reply.

I agree there are huge problems with the accounts. The Jews did not divide a day into 24 hours.

Its obvious John when refering to the sixth hour was refering to noon.

How do we know. From the events described.

Using apologetics, the sixth hour would be 6 am.

Daybreak, ie morning (sunlight), would be around 530 the earliest. According to John:

28 Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. 29 So Pilate came out to them and asked, “What charges are you bringing against this man?”

At this point ,earliest its 5:30. Jesus is then:

Dragged before Pilate.
Pharisees have a discussion with Pilate.
Pilate talks to Jesus.
Decides to have Jesus tortured.
Jesus is taken away and tortured.
Jesus is led out to the priests and officers.
The crowd demands Jesus be crucified.
Pilate questions Jesus again.
Priests and officers demand again be crucified.
Pilate decides to crucify him.
Pilate again talks with the priests.
Jesus is taken away to be crucified.

Now imagine all the walking and talking that is not mentioned.

All this ocurred within 30 minutes????

It makes perfect sense to conclude that the sixth hour was noon.

Even worse for the apologists, I used a site that manages to give various times throughout history. In 33, I could not even find a morning in Israel that corresponded to 5:30. Every time I put in came in later. So John could not be refering to 6am.

John though, uses the sixth hour earlier in his gospel.

3He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

4And he must needs go through Samaria.

5Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

6Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8(For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

Its seems rather unreasonable that Jesus went from Judea to Samaria in the darkness, coming upon the well at around 6am.

It also seems more likely in my opinion, that his disciples would go into the city to buy meat at noon, rather than 6am.

But again, back to my main point. Can anyone show me that the Romans kept time, starting a day at midnight?

I have found sites that claim their day started at morning, from there, various methods were used to break the hours down, be it a sundial or water clock.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 12-19-2010 4:13 PM Jon has not yet responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2857 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 154 of 221 (598050)
12-27-2010 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
12-27-2010 10:42 AM


Re: The real problem
I "restarted" this thread hoping for an answer to my question regarding a long dead debate.

Apologists state the sixth hour in John was six AM, since John was using Roman time.

Yet I cannot find a single piece of evidence that suggests the Romans started their days at midnight.

Also, what year and who invented the concept of starting a day at midnight?

Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 12-27-2010 10:42 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 12-27-2010 2:59 PM hERICtic has responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2857 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 156 of 221 (598079)
12-27-2010 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by jar
12-27-2010 2:59 PM


Re: The real problem
Jar writes:

But that is a "whatever" type question.
What possible difference could it make?

I'm not exactly sure what your response is refering to. I asked the question bc I was curious. I was reading the thread from the start and came across a debate regarding the contradiction found in the gospels regarding when Jesus was upon the cross.

An apologists typical response to "solve" this contradiction is that its refering to Roman time. Yet from what I can gather, Roman "time" did not start a day at midnight.

Hence my questions. Is there evidence that the Romans started their "day' at midnight? That the sixth hour is six AM?

Also, who were the first to use midnight as a starting point?

Those were my questions, based upon my curiosity. Not sure what a "whatever" type question means, as per your statement.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 12-27-2010 2:59 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by purpledawn, posted 12-28-2010 9:07 AM hERICtic has responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2857 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 159 of 221 (598122)
12-28-2010 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by purpledawn
12-28-2010 9:07 AM


Re: Roman Time Keeping
Thanks for your reply. Although I do have one "issue" with your statement:

He missed the whole point that Mark and John are speaking of completely different days. The time argument is irrelevant.

I'm not sure why you feel the time element is irrelevant. Its a contradiction thread. John has a different time when Jesus was placed upon the cross than than does Mark. Mark has the third hour, John the sixth. Hence the contradiction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by purpledawn, posted 12-28-2010 9:07 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 12-28-2010 11:17 AM hERICtic has responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2857 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 161 of 221 (598136)
12-28-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by purpledawn
12-28-2010 11:17 AM


Re: Roman Time Keeping
Purple Dawn writes:

If one man is talking about Saturday and another is talking about Tuesday, what does the time matter. They aren't talking about the same day.
The author of John has Jesus die at the same time as the Paschal Lamb. So Jesus died before the Passover Meal. In Mark, the author has Jesus die after the Passover Meal.

It does matter. You could have two different days, yet both authors could claim X occured at 9am. Its a contradiction thread. Its just another list of contradictions. Yes, they both have different days, but they also have different times.

PD writes:

That was the contradiction that nator brought up in Message 51. See her response in Message 98.

When we're talking about two completely different days, the time issue is irrelevant. Even if they had all given the same time of the day, it still isn't the same time because it's a different day.

Its not irrelevant! Its a contradiction thread. Again, yes they're talking about two different days, but the entire story could have tens upon tens of contradictions within. I could very easily say the day itself doesnt matter, that its the time that is crucial.

PD writes:

Understand? The author of John just flat out wrote a different story.

Yes, John wrote a different story, about a different day, with different times, with different aspects and other assorted contradictions.

It does not matter per se that its a different day, if I'm debating someone over the contradiction about when Jesus was placed upon the cross time wise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 12-28-2010 11:17 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-28-2010 3:42 PM hERICtic has responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2857 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 163 of 221 (598144)
12-28-2010 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by purpledawn
12-28-2010 3:42 PM


Re: Roman Time Keeping
PD writes:

Apparently you don't understand. My comments were in relation to the originators response to nator.

A-HA! So its you who does not understand!!! I jumped started this thread due to post 78, a response by an apologist, Conspirator. He started this thread, he made a comment on his own thread regarding Roman time. Hence why I asked the questions.

Anyway, thanks for the info about Roman time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-28-2010 3:42 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Theflyingsorcerer, posted 02-06-2011 4:59 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2857 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 178 of 221 (604380)
02-11-2011 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by III
02-11-2011 2:27 PM


Re: Other thoughts
Hi Roman Numeral 3.

Just curious, do you believe the Bible contains any contradictions?

Heres one I found a few years ago, not sure if other sites have brought it up or not.

John 18:

19 Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.
20 “I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. 21 Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said.”

22 When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby slapped him in the face. “Is this the way you answer the high priest?” he demanded.

23 “If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?” 24 Then Annas sent him bound to Caiaphas the high priest.

Here Jesus is being questioned. The context of the verses is quite clear. Jesus is brought before Annas then sent to Caiaphas the high priest. Do you believe Caiaphas and Annas in this scenario are standing side by side? Same room? Different parts of town?

Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by III, posted 02-11-2011 2:27 PM III has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019