Does prophecy support the Bible

Going through your list, I'll leave out 1 and 2 because they aren't very convincing examples of prophecy even though the events have occurred (although the time taken is rather longer than the text seems to allow).3) The Temple is "ready to be built" only in the sense that Israel holds the site - as they have done for decades. It isn't being rebuilt now, it may never be rebuilt.4) The United Nations "moving towards World Govenment" ???? Right now the idea is laughable. There's no prospect of the U.S. agreeing and even less chance that the Chinese would. No, we can write this one off as not happening and not likely to happen in the forseeable future.5) Christians being persecuted ? In some places. This is nothign new, so it is worthless as a sign.6) "Signs in the Heavens" are a regular occurrence unless the rest of the prophecies were imminent - and 3 and 4 are right out there's nothing to suggest that the recent solar flares have anything more to do with the prophecy than the appearance of Halley's Comet - just before the Normans invaded England.7) When haven't there been "wars and rumours of wars" ?SO we've got two that definitely don't apple and three more that are so general that they don't refer to ANY specific time. Not an impressive record.As for the VeriChip it doesn't seem that it would be likely to be implanted in the forehead, nor would it leave a visible mark. Indeed the illustration in the VeriGuard information (under "products") suggests implanting it in the arm above the elbow - nowhere near the hand either. In other words it is not likely that John had this in mind at all. It is far more likely that he meant physical marks - a brand or tatoo.

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This trivializes the costs and technology involved in accomplishing these.

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You know, even with ancient and very limited technology, it would have been theoretically possible to reach every point in the world in a lifetime. Jeez, the safe, established trade routes covered a pretty large chunk of the earth's area and population, and could be covered in months. Not to mention that you claim God was behind this prophecy, and with him all things are possible! Try to be self-consistent here!That you have denied the ability of an omnipotent God to accomplish what the prophecy says is NOT a good reason to insist that it actually says something else.

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With your argument it would be impossible to make any prophecy because as soon as someone could read about it they could self fulfill it.

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You can make any prophecy you want! Nobody can stop that. What they can do is doubt a supernatural origin of a "prophecy" whose very origin and fulfilment can be explained perfectly well by human events.

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But I'm sure when Jesus sets foot on the Mt. of Olives, you will say that doesn't fulfill prophecy because Jesus knew he said that therefore it was a self fulfilling prophecy.

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Now you're resorting to misrepresentation of conclusions that differ from yours, apparently to make your belief appear more rational by comparison. Maybe you find this comforting, or maybe you just like to insult people. Regardless, it impedes the discussion. Your prediction is pretty nonsensical.

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THe people wouldn't have but Jesus, the one who uttered the prophecy, would have known about the rest of the world as well as the future.

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Again... the proof that Jesus is all-knowing is that Jesus is all-knowing?Okay, then. The proof that I am all-knowing is that I am all-knowing.Woo! I'm all-knowing! Rock!

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THe technology to do it wasn't available until now. Unless it was divinely inspired no one could have know that the technology would exist except the all knowing son of God.

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The technology to... what? Build a temple? Go around the world preaching? Mark people's hands?

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This trivializes the costs and technology involved in accomplishing these. With your argument it would be impossible to make any prophecy because as soon as someone could read about it they could self fulfill it.

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Now you're catching on. The only way these prophecies could be at all impressive is if the people fulfilling the prophecy either:1) Have no idea the prophecy was made.
2) Have no control over whether the prophecy comes to pass.Preferably both.

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That's why we have study bibles which point out these translation problems.

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I'm sorry then, I was mistaken when I said "your interpretation." I should have said, "the author of the study Bible's interpretation."

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But there is a movement to rebuild the Temple. All the materials are there and a majority or Israeli people want it built.

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Point to this majority.

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And I guess Dan would say the fact that a fire could happen makes this a self fulfilling prophecy therefore it's not happening.

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Actually, if I was in a house that was on fire, I'd probably look for the nearest door. Fire sucks.Of course, if someone said to me "I predict that your house will burn" and then that person lit my house on fire, I sure wouldn't assume he had the divine gift of prophecy. That's a little different from not acknowledging the flames, isn't it?[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-24-2003]

It would have taken them longer than a lifetime to copy the bible much less translate it into all the languages on earth. You do realize that they had to copy the bible by hand back in Jesus time. How am I misrepresenting anything. Dan says that if you are aware of a prophecy like "preaching to all Nations on Earth" that to fulfill this is a self fulfilling prophecy. So obviously if Jesus said he would return, then his return, according to Dan, would be a self fulfilling prophecy. With his line of reasoning I simply said there can be no such thing as a prophecy, according to Dan. I'm not insulting anyone I am simply pointing out that his line of reason is not reasonable.

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So obviously if Jesus said he would return, then his return, according to Dan, would be a self fulfilling prophecy.

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Actually, yes. I would say that.Of course, Jesus returning from the dead would certainly be a miraculous event. But I'd hardly call it prophecy. More like promising something, then doing it.

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With his line of reasoning I simply said there can be no such thing as a prophecy, according to Dan.

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Please explain the leap in logic there.

You are saying that preaching the bible to every nation on earth is self fulfilling because people know about the prophecy and then they go do it. I'm saying that acording to your logic, any prophecy can be read and then people could go do it. So your saying there can be no prophecy. By the way the people wanting to rebuild the Jewish temple are not doing it because the Bible prophecied it would be rebuilt. They are not christians. They are rebuilding it because they think a massiah will come. So they can not be self fulfilling the prophecy. They are just fulfilling it. Just type in "rebuilding the jewish temple" and see how much information there is on it.And by the way you say you would avoid the flames but your refusal to believe the current events which were prophecied is leading you right into the flames. We would say Jesus already returned from the dead. This is actually the second comming.

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You are saying that preaching the bible to every nation on earth is self fulfilling because people know about the prophecy and then they go do it. I'm saying that acording to your logic, any prophecy can be read and then people could go do it.

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Here's where it happens...

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So your saying there can be no prophecy.

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Please explain the leap in logic there.I outlined possible scenarios for valid prophecies in an above post.

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By the way the people wanting to rebuild the Jewish temple are not doing it because the Bible prophecied it would be rebuilt. They are not christians. They are rebuilding it because they think a massiah will come. So they can not be self fulfilling the prophecy. They are just fulfilling it. Just type in "rebuilding the jewish temple" and see how much information there is on it.

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Point to them. While you're at it, point to where I said that one would be self-fulfilling.In the meantime... it's nice to see Jesus predicting that a group of people that already had a habit of rebuilding temples which had been destroyed would rebuild a temple that had been destroyed.

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And by the way you say you would avoid the flames but your refusal to believe the current events which were prophecied is leading you right into the flames.

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Refusal to believe current events? I'm not the one trying to say that the UN means we're on the road to a world government.That leads to an interesting question... how would there be "war and rumors of war" if there was a world government?Regardless... you'd think that people who want to make it clear that the Bible stands up on its own merits wouldn't have to resort to threats of damnation to get their point across.

Not necessarily. For example, he could've prophesied about some spectacular celestial event that humans could not have artificially induced. He could've predicted a certain earthquake, or a storm, etc... So basically your assertion that Dan's reasoning disqualifies all prophecies is wrong. Nuthin' like some good ol' fashioned Christian threats of fire and brimstone to sway your opponent, right keith? Seriously, are vague threats really the best response you can muster to that?All you're doing is running around like chicken little screaming that the sky is falling when it's really nothing of the sort. Even if someone predicted that the temple would be rebuilt and it so came to pass, it is hardly a sufficient reason to swallow the rest of the claims made in the Bible -- especially when the prediction itself was so temporally vague that if it EVER happened it could be interpreted as fulfilled prophecy by those who wanted to believe it to be. That's like telling you that I caught a 500-lb. bass next to the old oak tree and expecting you to believe me when I show you the old oak. In other words, in order for this to be a convincing argument, your going to need better evidence than ad-hoc interpretations of vague biblical passages in light of some events which you claim represent fulfilled prophecy.[This message has been edited by ::, 11-24-2003]

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It would have taken them longer than a lifetime to copy the bible much less translate it into all the languages on earth. You do realize that they had to copy the bible by hand back in Jesus time.

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When did having an entire copy of the Bible in a language become a requirement of preaching Christianity in that language? You can learn enough for conversation in a matter of hours or days.If you're going to claim this is fulfilled prophecy, maybe we should start over with what exactly is prophesied. Does the Bible need to be translated into every dialect? What about languages that have no writing? Then, does it need to be preached to every family group, or just to every ethnicity? How about every artificial political division... do you use autonomous countries, or states/provinces/other?In any event, it will be difficult to prove that such a thing was impossible up to a certain time and is now inevitable.

Keith, a few things about prophecy Temporal issues
Irrelevant prophecy: "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Relevant prophecy: "The sun will not rise tomorrow"
Irrelevant prophecy: "On some day, the sun will not rise"Vagueness
Irrelevant prophecy: "Human technology will continue to increase"
Relevant prophecy: "Humans will invent a device which allows them to fly through the air inside it, faster than an eagle"
Related:
Irrelevant prophecy: "Humans will invent a type of naval warship which can carry over 100 soldiers" (irrelevant because it is just expanding on technological advancement trends of the time)Rewording by the reader
Irrelevant prophecy: "In the future, people will fly through the sky on the backs of giant eagles." (eagles being reinterpreted by the reader to mean "airplanes")
Relevant prophecy: "In the future, people will fly through the sky inside self-powered craft."Reader's opinions inserted
Irrelevant prophecy: "The people of the world will be meaner to each other." (with the reader interpretting the people of the world as getting generally meaner)Self-fulfilling prophecies
Irrelevant prophecy: "My followers will always wear fruit on their heads." (if the person ends up having followers, they're going to want to live by their leader's ideals, and wear fruit on their heads; if not, the person will be lost into obscurity and no longer remembered. Thus, the relevance of the "prophecy" doesn't apply.)As for rebuilding the temple (i.e., bulldozing down Al-Aqsa mosque), the majority of people in Israel, last poll that was posted in Haretz (an Israeli daily) that I saw, actually even support an unconditional withdrawl from *all settlements*. The right wing Likud government that they currently have under Ariel Sharon - majorly pro-settlement, ultra nationalist, pro-orthodox, etc - has largely banned Israeli travel to the temple mount since the start of the Intifada. If the right-wing Israelis are willing to ban travel, what sort of Israelis are you thinking that want to plow down Al-Aqsa?? ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 11-24-2003]

Relevant prophecy: Prophesied when all anyone knew about for money was gold and silver. There will come a time when money/exchange medium will be via marks and numbers worldwide.

Relevant prophecy: There will come a time when all the nations of the world will view certain persons in one city of the world. This is a Biblical prophecy in Revelation, chapter 11.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-24-2003]

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I'm saying that acording to your logic, any prophecy can be read and then people could go do it.

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Not all prophecies are capable of being carried out, and that is why the best prophecies are the kind beyond human intervention. As has been mentioned, events in the natural world would be a type of prophecy beyond human control.Self-fulfillment is one important criticism when evaluating ANY prophecy, and should be valid to anyone who believes that prophecies can really exist. Without criteria for judging what is good prophecy from bad prophecy, how is anyone able to judge true prophets from false prophets?Dan's beer prophecy was a good one, but let's choose one that is more realistic.You can go to a palm reader and many do. Let's say a palm reader tells you that you will have ice cream soon. Unless you are diabetic, it is likely that you will have some ice cream at some point. The fact that you have been told you will, may even increase your noticing the opportunities you have to do so. If you are particularly devoted to this psychic, you may find it irresistable to get ice cream next time you get the chance.The problem here is that the prophecy has been left in your own hands, and has not been well defined as to when it will actually happen. You could of course try to deny the prophecy by going out of your way to never eat ice cream, but this is of course why prophecy is usually carried out by believers in the first place.If you knew that I was given this same prophecy by a pyschic I swore by, and I tell you I ended up having ice cream the very next day, would you say she was a true prophet or would you say it wasn't a very strong prophecy in the first place?For several of the prophecies you have mentioned, the prophecies are coming true only because those dedicated to their fulfillment (or the prophet) are going out of their way to make them come true. While this does not itself make the prophecy a false one, it seriously removes credibility of the prophecy.Combined with their other weaknesses, Biblical prophecy comes off equally (and sometimes less) credible and reliable as the ones I can get from the psychic down the street.Who then am I to believe? And who are you to believe? Are Jesus and the psychic both great seers? Or will you judge the psychic based on some criteria?As far as "preaching the Bible to every nation on earth" goes, it is problematic that the scale and timeframe were not set (in addition to the self-fulfillment problem).If Jesus had said that the Bible would first have to be taught to nations no one had ever heard of before and in places of the world people could not even conceive of at that point in time, it would have been much more compelling. Otherwise one cannot know that he didn't mean the region people knew of as "the world" at that time. Jesus did not set an accurate physical scale on this prophecy.As it is, the Bible has been taught around the world for centuries (almost 500). Why have the other components of the prophecy not happened sooner? If centuries can lag between points of prophecy, what then is the use of these events as markers? In this way no decent time scale has been set.We can already see that "generation" is now defined to last at least 2000 years, maybe more if people don't get around to building that temple some time soon. Is this parameter being stretched to make prophecy, or is this parameter being used to constrain and define whether something is prophecy? See the weakness?

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By the way the people wanting to rebuild the Jewish temple are not doing it because the Bible prophecied it would be rebuilt. They are not christians. They are rebuilding it because they think a massiah will come. So they can not be self fulfilling the prophecy. They are just fulfilling it.

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Actually they are building it to fulfill prophecy. They are still waiting for the first coming of the messiah, while Xtians wait for the 2nd. It just so happens that both want the same thing, including the building of the temple. It is the same type of reasoning that led Xtians to help Jews reestablish Israel in the first place... so that God's word would not be wrong.I hope this explanation is more acceptable to you, and that if you do not agree with me, that you will explain what criteria is best used to judge true prophecy from false prophecy (or how can you differentiate between a dimestore psychic and Jesus).------------------
holmes

Nice overview on prophetical critique.

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If the right-wing Israelis are willing to ban travel, what sort of Israelis are you thinking that want to plow down Al-Aqsa??

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Some Israelis do want to rebuild the temple (and even tear down the mosque to do so). But what's the matter. If 2000 years have passed so far, and 500 between one point of prophecy and the next, building the temple is just a matter of time.Right?------------------
holmes