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Author Topic:   "The Exodus Revealed" Video II
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 31 of 603 (130990)
08-06-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by JimSDA
08-06-2004 11:11 AM


Re: Moller's video...
You have not caught the actual meaning that I see in Jar's post.
jar writes:
...that showed either any connection to the Biblical account of Exodus or even anything remarkable.
by the time you restated what you thought he was saying you got to:
JimSDA writes:
The entire Exodus video by Moller discussed ONLY things that had nothing to do with the Exodus??
What jar is looking for is the connection. Moller discusses things that are claimed to have something to do with the exodus but how are they shown to actually be connected to the exodus.
As a somewhat farcical example, if we had Egyptian records of chariot serial numbers lost "chasing the Israelites" and we found chariots with those serial numbers we would have a connection.
It isn't enough to claim a connection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 11:11 AM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 11:49 AM NosyNed has not replied

JimSDA
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 603 (130995)
08-06-2004 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
08-06-2004 11:22 AM


Re: Moller's video...
jar jar, you already wrote: "Having seen the video, I can say that there is not one single item, one single claim, that showed either any connection to the Biblical account of Exodus or even anything remarkable," so why in the world would I waste my time talking with you about the things you've already seen on the video and rejected??
You pretend you're willing to listen, but you're really not.
Never before in human history has mankind ever even found a possible crossing site to investigate -- and we find an underwater landbridge and coral covered shapes resembling chariot wheels!
We find a Mt. Sinai in Saudi Arabia where the entire top is burned black, and ALL the items mentioned in the biblical account are around that mountain. But you say "there's not one single item" there.
When the Saudi archaeologists saw the Egyptian style petroglyphs on the altar stones, they told us that they have NEVER seen Egyptian style petroglyphs anywhere in their country before! Hmmmmmm ... that must mean that people who came from Egypt actually ended up in Saudi Arabia ... just like it says in the Bible!
Yet you saw "nothing" in the video as evidence of ANY connection to the biblical story!
Good going, jar jar.
When you watched the video, were your giant floppy ears in the way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 08-06-2004 11:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-06-2004 12:11 PM JimSDA has replied
 Message 231 by Trae, posted 08-09-2004 12:07 AM JimSDA has replied
 Message 357 by Trae, posted 08-10-2004 1:56 AM JimSDA has not replied

JimSDA
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 603 (130997)
08-06-2004 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by NosyNed
08-06-2004 11:30 AM


Re: Moller's video...
NosyNed says, "It isn't enough to claim a connection" -- oh yes it is, especially when it ALL fits into the biblical narative!
We compare it to the written account, we match the discriptions of the route, we ID the items mentioned -- and you say there's "no connection"!
We see a connection just fine, which is why Moller published his book and did his video -- because to us the connection is as plain as the nose on your NosyNed face!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NosyNed, posted 08-06-2004 11:30 AM NosyNed has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 34 of 603 (130999)
08-06-2004 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by JimSDA
08-05-2004 8:09 PM


Re: Charles Knight's challenge...
Hi Jim,
The claim by you that: '1) The route as it compares to the description in the Bible (which means you would have to wade through a long, long verse-by-verse description of what the Bible says, which I don't think you folks are up to doing).' has already been dealt with.
I have dealt with the itinerary of the Exodus HERE and demonstarted why the crossing of the Reed Sea cannot have been at Aqabah. This is only one reason why scholars are not interested in Wyatt's alleged chariot wheels, the Bible clearly tells us that the Reed Sea crossing was somewhere in Egypt. The Israelites only travelled about 25-30 KM at most before they turned back into Egypt, they crossed the sea and then three days later they arrived at the Red Sea, feel free to respond to my post about the location of the Sea of Reeds.
Cheers
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by JimSDA, posted 08-05-2004 8:09 PM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 12:35 PM Brian has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 603 (131003)
08-06-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by JimSDA
08-06-2004 11:43 AM


Re: Moller's video...
When the Saudi archaeologists saw the Egyptian style petroglyphs on the altar stones, they told us that they have NEVER seen Egyptian style petroglyphs anywhere in their country before! Hmmmmmm ... that must mean that people who came from Egypt actually ended up in Saudi Arabia ... just like it says in the Bible!
Again, simply an unsupported assertion.
Rock art similar to what has been shown is actually pretty common in Saudi Arabia. There are even books devoted to just that and several learned journals and societies that study such art throughout the Arabian pennisular.
Rock Art of Arabia
The book covers
Major portion of the book is covered by Saudi Arabia owing to abundance of material and vastness of the country. In fact, this is the first comprehensive book on Saudi Arabia's rock art covering and reviewing all the regions and describing stylistic traditions to be found there.
Notice that one of the things mentioned is the abundance of material.
But beyond the shere volume of rock art to be found in Saudi Arabia, there are additional problems with the specific samples you and other supporters have proposed.
First, they are alleged to be images of calves, yet what is actually shown is far more like bull, Ibex and other member of the antelope family.
Second, since rock art is fairly common throughout the penninsula, there is nothing to connect the drawings to the Exodus instead of any other group or people in the area.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 11:43 AM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 12:17 PM jar has replied
 Message 37 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 12:19 PM jar has not replied

JimSDA
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 603 (131004)
08-06-2004 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
08-06-2004 12:11 PM


Rock art book....
jar jar, don't just "tell" me about the Saudi rock art book, SHOW ME another example of the Egyptian style cows and bulls done somewhere else in Saudi Arabia!
Scan the page and SHOW me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-06-2004 12:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 08-06-2004 12:24 PM JimSDA has replied

JimSDA
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 603 (131005)
08-06-2004 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
08-06-2004 12:11 PM


Rock art feet...
jar jar, the rock art book should have lots of petroglyphs of FEET drawn onto rocks -- right?
Do you know why they did feet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-06-2004 12:11 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 603 (131007)
08-06-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by JimSDA
08-06-2004 12:17 PM


Re: Rock art book....
From Yatib, Saudi Arabia, dating from about 2400BCE.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 12:17 PM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 12:54 PM jar has replied

JimSDA
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 603 (131008)
08-06-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Brian
08-06-2004 11:53 AM


"Out" of Egypt...
Brian, I appreciate your calm and intelligent post -- but let me share with you the reason why the crossing site cannot be in the Gulf of Suez area.
Exodus 13:18 says,"God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red Sea, and the children of Israel went up harnessed OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT" -- and then they continued their journey to Etham (verse 20) -- then in Ex 14:2 they encamped before Pihahiroth -- then they were finally trapped against the sea.
Notice the order of events: They left the land of Egypt, camped in the wilderness, then later arrived at the crossing site!
Egypt is on the Gulf of Suez -- there is no way that the Hebrews could have "left Egypt" before being trapped at the waters of the Gulf of Suez! THEY WOULD STILL BE IN EGYPT!
So the only logical route is a route that crosses the entire Sinai Penninsula and goes over to the Gulf of Aqaba!
That's if you wish to go by what the Bible says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Brian, posted 08-06-2004 11:53 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 08-06-2004 1:05 PM JimSDA has replied

JimSDA
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 603 (131014)
08-06-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
08-06-2004 12:24 PM


Re: Rock art book....
Thank you, jar, for scanning the petroglyph and posting it.
Now, how would you like it if I took the same attitude of some of your buddies on this forum and said, "Pictures don't prove a thing!"
Do you know how STUPID those people sound when they say things like that? Yet it happens over, and over, and over --
The TRUTH of the matter is that it is IMPORTANT for us to look at pictures of archaeological sites and petroglyphs, etc.! That's the only way to try to understand what is going on, it's one of the legitimate forms of archaeological investigation.
I've forwarded the pic to a friend for his assessment (but not to Lennart Moller) -- but I hope you realize that we would also need to know the exact location of this petroglyph, plus study the surrounding area to see what else is in the area around it -- then after being able to do this, then we can write a reply to it.
Several people have been to the Jebel el Lawz site to photograph the entire area -- until we've inspected your site, we can't comment.
BTW, did the book include OUR PETROGLYPHS?
I bet it didn't!
And if it didn't, what is that telling you?
Could it be that the Saudis don't want people investigating Jebel el Lawz?
Could it be that they don't want to share it with Christians or Jews because then Christians and Jews would want to GO THERE to this possible Mt. Sinai site?
SHOW ME THE PICS OF OUR SITE IN YOUR ROCK ART BOOK!
Our site has been known to them since 1984 when Ron Wyatt first showed it to them (and then in 1985 they had put up the chain link fences around the area) --
SHOW ME OUR PETROGLYPHS IN THE ROCK ART BOOK!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 08-06-2004 12:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 08-06-2004 12:57 PM JimSDA has not replied
 Message 43 by jar, posted 08-06-2004 1:14 PM JimSDA has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 41 of 603 (131016)
08-06-2004 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by JimSDA
08-06-2004 12:54 PM


Re: Rock art book....
quote:
I've forwarded the pic to a friend for his assessment (but not to Lennart Moller) -- but I hope you realize that we would also need to know the exact location of this petroglyph, plus study the surrounding area to see what else is in the area around it -- then after being able to do this, then we can write a reply to it.
So why don't you just buy the book ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 12:54 PM JimSDA has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Trae, posted 08-09-2004 12:29 AM PaulK has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 42 of 603 (131019)
08-06-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by JimSDA
08-06-2004 12:35 PM


Re: "Out" of Egypt...
Hi Jim,
but let me share with you the reason why the crossing site cannot be in the Gulf of Suez area.
I really wasn't suggesting the Gulf of Suez, I honestly think that the Gulf of Suez is too far south for the Israelites to have reached beore the EGyptians would have caught up with them. I personally think that the bitter lakes area is the most likely place for the setting of the sea crossing.
Exodus 13:18 says,"God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red Sea, and the children of Israel went up harnessed OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT" -- and then they continued their journey to Etham (verse 20) -- then in Ex 14:2 they encamped before Pihahiroth -- then they were finally trapped against the sea.
In Exodus 14:2 Jim, just 7 verses later, the Israelites are commanded to turn back into Egypt, as you say they camp at Etham, but they then turned back to Pi Hahiroth "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon.
If we then look at the itinerary in Numbers 33 it expands on the information given in the Book of Exodus, Numbers informs us that after they left Pi-Hahiroth they immediately crossed through the sea, only after the sea crossing did they enter the desert.
Numbers 33:8 They left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert, and when they had traveled for three days in the Desert of Etham, they camped at Marah.
Therefore, according to Numbers at least, the Sea crossing was before they reached the desert of Etham.
Egypt is on the Gulf of Suez -- there is no way that the Hebrews could have "left Egypt" before being trapped at the waters of the Gulf of Suez! THEY WOULD STILL BE IN EGYPT!
I dont entertain a Gulf of Suez crossing at all Jim, I am convinced the Bible claims that the crossing was a lot further north, they would have been caught before they could have reached the northern extremity of the Gulf of Suez, which also negates the Aqabah site as well, in my opinion. William Albright, the 'Father of Biblical Archaeology' also eliminates the Gulf of Suez as a crossing site for the very same reason.
A further point about 'still being in Egypt' is the fact that no matter where the crossing took place they would have still been in Egypt as the Egyptian Empire of the 15th century (going by 1 Kings 6:1 chronology) covered the entire area, it also covered most of Palestine as well, so the Israelites were essentially still in Egypt regardless.
So the only logical route is a route that crosses the entire Sinai Penninsula and goes over to the Gulf of Aqaba!
That's if you wish to go by what the Bible says.
I can only go by what the Bible says as this is the only place where we find any mention of these epic events, and I am happy to go by the biblical narratives. However, I do think that the Bible quite explicity claims that the Sea crossing was in Egypt, I think the Bitter Lakes region is the most likely.
We also have to keep in mind the composite nature of the Book of Exodus. These narratives were written by several authors over a long period of time and spliced together to produce what the final editor considered to be a final continuous narrative. There is at least a possiblity that the Sea crossing is a late addition to the text, or has been exaggerated in some way, or it may even by a purely mythical event given the legendary imagery and motifs involved.
It is a fascinating subject, one that I love to research, and I think that these differences of interpretation and beliefs are just another very intersting aspect of the debate.
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 12:35 PM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 4:05 PM Brian has replied
 Message 54 by Lysimachus, posted 08-06-2004 6:46 PM Brian has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 603 (131021)
08-06-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by JimSDA
08-06-2004 12:54 PM


Re: Rock art book....
Ah, the great conspiricy ploy. LOL
First, I gave you the location, told you where they are. And it's not hard to find them or other examples. Did you know that there are even commercial tours that specialize in taking folk to see the rock art throughout the area. Google Rock Art and Arabia and you will find lots of resources.
There is no vast conspiricy to subvert what you have found, only immense disinterest and boredom. Notice that the date on the glyphs is from about 1000 years before your dating of the Exodus. Compare the drawings stylisticly to the one that I posted and you will see great similarities.
Now, look at the style of art from Egypt in the 1400BCE era.
Here, there is none of the crudity found in the samples you supplied. This is a very sophisticated and refined art.
What you provided is far more typical of art from 1000 years earlier. It is typical of the pictographs found among the earlier inhabitants of the area, not of the people that only a short while before were supposedly helping build the monuments of Egypt.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 12:54 PM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by JimSDA, posted 08-06-2004 4:17 PM jar has replied

JimSDA
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 603 (131046)
08-06-2004 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Brian
08-06-2004 1:05 PM


Re: "Out" of Egypt...
Brian, you misquoted Exodus 14:2 -- you wrote: " "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth..." -- when Exodus 14:2 says NOTHING about turning "back" to Egypt, it says, "that they TURN and encamp before Pihahiroth"!
It just says "turn," which means turning in either direction -- the text does NOT say that they "turned back to Egypt"!
Regarding Numbers 33, yes, Etham is mentioned twice -- and on the map that Ron had me draw for him back in 1992, he placed Etham as an area that wrapped around the top of the Gulf of Aqaba, so it was technically on BOTH sides of the Gulf of Aqaba. It was a REGION, not a city. Which means that the Hebrews encountered it first before they crossed the gulf, and then encountered "the wilderness of Etham" (verse 8) AFTER they crossed the Gulf of Aqaba!
Reagarding a body of water being northward of the top of Suez, there never was a body of water there that would qualify as being "the heart of the sea" (Ex. 15:8) -- and the term "great deep" is repeatedly used for the crossing site, so there is no way that Pharoah's army was drowned in a 2-foot deep "Sea of Reeds"! That wouldn't be "the great deep"! (Isaiah 51:10, 63:11-13, Nehemiah 9:11, Ex.15:5,8).
As we've been saying for 20 years, the only route that makes sense and matches the biblical description is Ron's Exodus route (especially since your route only takes people to St. Catherine's mountain, a place that has zero evidence for being Mt. Sinai) -- Galatians 4:25 says that Mt. Sinai is "in Arabia" -- the land of Midian -- and that land is currently known as Saudi Arabia!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 08-06-2004 1:05 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 08-06-2004 4:17 PM JimSDA has replied
 Message 155 by Brian, posted 08-08-2004 10:17 AM JimSDA has not replied

JimSDA
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 603 (131048)
08-06-2004 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
08-06-2004 1:14 PM


Really Stupid Statements...
Sorry, I've got to go back to calling him jar jar -- he posted this brilliant statement: "There is no vast conspiricy to subvert what you have found, only immense disinterest and boredom."
Are you a complete moron?
Every person who has ever gone to the Jebel el Lawz's site has come back telling people that the Saudis do NOT want anybody there!!
Are you calling these people liars, jar jar?
Let me say it for you in words that a grade school child can understand:
The Saudis hate Jews and Christians, and since this site might be Mt. Sinai, AND THEY KNOW IT, the Saudis won't let any Jewish or Christian archaeologists go there!
Boy, for being so smart you guys are really, really ignorant of the reality of the situation!
In the history of archaeology, ONLY 5 GROUPS OF PEOPLE have ever visited that site -- Ron Wyatt, the Caldwells, and Cornuke/Williams, a lady named Vivica, and a fellow from England named Aaron Sen -- and NOBODY ever gets "permission" from the Saudi government to go there!
NOBODY!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 08-06-2004 1:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 08-07-2004 2:09 AM JimSDA has replied

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