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Author Topic:   If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 136 of 189 (136221)
08-23-2004 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
08-23-2004 1:17 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
>To be a valid prophesy, it must be capable of specificity and being
>understood before the fact.
Repeating what I posted before:

Lets briefly review the contents of Page not found :
1) Before the return from Babylonian captivity, Daniel was told by God that 483 years after the building of Jerusalem and it's walls an "annointed" or "Mashiach" would show up. It happened to the very day in 32 AD.
2) In 606 BC, the nation of Israel was conquered, and after 70 years of captivity (Jeremiah 25), they still had 360 years of sin debt left (Ezekiel 4). Since they were dis-obedient to God, God punished them seven times more (Leviticus 26), which means upon their return from Babylon, they were still ruled over by outsiders, and then kicked out.
606BC + 70 years (Jeremiah 25) + (360 years left x 7) = 1948 AD
God promised to scatter the Jews into the world if they did not repent, and then he did it. He also brought them back (1948AD) exactly when he said He would.
>To be a valid prophesy, it must be capable of specificity and being
>understood before the fact.
So which one of the aforementioned two is:
1) Not specific
2) Not understandable
As I see it:
1) Jesus showed up right on schedule in 32 AD, and it was foretold by God through Daniel circa 536 BC.
2) God allowed Israel to form in 1948 AD, exactly when the punishment had ended according to Ezekiel 4, Leviticus 26, and Jeremiah 25.
>That is prophecy. It will come true, or be proved false.
Which one was proved false?
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 08-23-2004 1:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by NosyNed, posted 08-23-2004 2:31 AM ROTB has replied
 Message 138 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2004 3:46 AM ROTB has replied
 Message 149 by jar, posted 08-23-2004 8:16 PM ROTB has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 137 of 189 (136222)
08-23-2004 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by ROTB
08-23-2004 1:52 AM


LOL, B4 the fact!
2) God allowed Israel to form in 1948 AD, exactly when the punishment had ended according to Ezekiel 4, Leviticus 26, and Jeremiah 25.
And you have the documented interpretation of this prophecy that was published before 1948 that said that Israel would be reformed about 1,948 years after the time of Christ? It has to be clear and understood before the occurance. I presume there would be some description of the assitance of Britain and others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 1:52 AM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 3:56 AM NosyNed has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 138 of 189 (136223)
08-23-2004 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by ROTB
08-23-2004 1:52 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
As I point out in this message http://EvC Forum: If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it? -->EvC Forum: If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it? the page you refer to misrepresents Ezekiel 4, adding together the punishments on Israel and Judah.
To add to that. since the people of Israel are gone (the "Lost Tribes") and the modern Jews come from Judah the calculation should use the figure for Judah alone of 40 years instead of 430 years.
So the period of punishment "according to" Ezekiel (because the "seven-times" is NOT in Ezekiel) it should take a mere 280 (40x7) years and Israel should have been restored in 326 BC.
Since your source misrepresents the Bible to claim a fulfilled prophecy why should we trust it ? Why should we even think that they beleive the Bible is the Word of God ? If they did then surely they wouldn't misrepresent it to advance their own views ? Aren't they REALLY asking us to reject the Bible and accept their sayings as the Word of God ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 1:52 AM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 4:08 AM PaulK has replied

  
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 139 of 189 (136224)
08-23-2004 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by NosyNed
08-23-2004 2:31 AM


Re: LOL, B4 the fact!
>And you have the documented interpretation of this prophecy that was
>published before 1948 that said that Israel would be reformed about
>1,948 years after the time of Christ?
The prophecy was published thousands of years ago, but the interpretation was discovered in 1988.
Please read Page not found for more specifics about 1948 being pointed to by God through Moses, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah in the Old Testament as the time Israel's punishment would end.
Please read Page not found for more specifics about 32 AD being the time predicted that the Messiah would come by God through Daniel back in the 500s BC.
Even Issac Newton did not consider the Bible a tool for telling the future with certainty, given the limits of our intellect compared with God's. He applied it towards understanding the world scientifically, and he applied it as a tool with which to calibrate timelines of recorded history. For instance, Newton concluded that many ancient cultures had greatly exaggerated their antiquity for the sake of national vanity.
>It has to be clear and understood before the occurrence.
I'm not saying Isaac Newton is the final and last and highest Bible interpreter of all time, but you are demanding a standard of proof that even Isaac Newton dared not demand of God. It was enough for Isaac Newton for the Bible to say what would happen, and for flawed mortal men to look after the fact, and then see that God had said it all along, and marvel and praise God.
God doesn't want us playing prognosticator. He wants us to learn about Him, learn from Him, learn from His Word, and be conformed to the likeness of His Son Jesus. I suspect this is why it is so difficult to interpret the Bible before the fact.
As I quote my previous brief summary of the explanation at Page not found for the prophecies that point to 1948 AD as the time the Jewish people would again rule itself in Israel, notice how clear and precise it is.
2) In 606 BC, the nation of Israel was conquered, and after 70 years of captivity (Jeremiah 25), they still had 360 years of sin debt left (Ezekiel 4). Since they were dis-obedient to God, God punished them seven times more (Leviticus 26), which means upon their return from Babylon, they were still ruled over by outsiders, and then kicked out.
606BC + 70 years (Jeremiah 25) + (360 years left x 7) = 1948 AD
God promised to scatter the Jews into the world if they did not repent, and then he did it. He also brought them back (1948AD) exactly when he said He would.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by NosyNed, posted 08-23-2004 2:31 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by NosyNed, posted 08-23-2004 4:55 AM ROTB has replied

  
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 140 of 189 (136227)
08-23-2004 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by PaulK
08-23-2004 3:46 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
> adding together the punishments on Israel and Judah.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are arguing that the punishments should have been carried out in parallel, and not serially.
But what God had Ezekiel actually do, was:
1) lie first for Israel on his left for 390 days
2) lie second for Judah on his right for 40 days
The punishment symbolized on Ezekiel ws carried out in serial, just as it works in the interpretation at Page not found, and not in parallel as you suggest it should.
>To add to that. since the people of Israel are gone (the "Lost
>Tribes") and the modern Jews come from Judah the calculation should
>use the figure for Judah alone of 40 years instead of 430 years.
I don't know for certain which tribes are "lost," but it's 10 of the 12, right? Leaving the two required, unless someone can dig up more solid facts on this. "Israel" is not a tribe. The kingdom of Israel was split during the reign of Solomon's son, into "Israel" in the north, which had 11 tribes, and "Judah" of the south which had one.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2004 3:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2004 4:24 AM ROTB has replied
 Message 142 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2004 4:48 AM ROTB has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 141 of 189 (136228)
08-23-2004 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ROTB
08-23-2004 4:08 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
I am saying that there are two different punishments on two sets of people. Adding them together - especially when the result is applied to only ONE of the two groups makes no sense at all. The punishment on Israel does not apply to the people of Judah, nor does the punishment on Judah apply to the people of Israel.
The ancient Kingdom of Israel is gone and has not been restored - the people are the "Lost Tribes". The modern Israel is better described as a modern Judah - since the Jewish population is descended from the people of Judah. This is quite contrary to the proposed reading of Exekiel 4 - IF the numbers are applied to the people the Bible says that they apply to. If the numbers are used correctly the "seven times" argument has Judah restored thousands of years ago and ancient Israel centuries ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 4:08 AM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 5:20 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 142 of 189 (136229)
08-23-2004 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ROTB
08-23-2004 4:08 AM


"Lost Tribes"
The tribes of Judah and Benjamin are suually accepted as staying with Judag (1 Kings 12 esp v21).
Israel eventually fell to the Assyrians and the people taken into exile, never to return. (2 Kings 17:6) - this in 724 BC.
Judah fell to Babylon in 586 BC so at that point the punishment of Israel had already run well over 100 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 4:08 AM ROTB has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 143 of 189 (136230)
08-23-2004 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by ROTB
08-23-2004 3:56 AM


Darn!
The prophecy was published thousands of years ago, but the interpretation was discovered in 1988.
They missed it! If they had managed to get it right only a few decades before (well, perhaps 60 or 70 years) it would be a bit credible. However, 40 years after the fact is not prophecy. LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 3:56 AM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 5:26 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 144 of 189 (136231)
08-23-2004 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
08-23-2004 4:24 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
First of all, thank you for your patience in trying to communicate with me, at such a late hour, on such a vague medium. It is a credit to your patience.
>I am saying that there are two different punishments on two sets of
>people. Adding them together - especially when the result is applied
>to only ONE of the two groups makes no sense at all.
The result was applied to both kingdoms in 606 BC. Both Israel and Judah were conquered then, and a Jewish king left in charge of the city of Jerusalem until 587 BC when he revolted, and was crushed.
>The punishment on
>Israel does not apply to the people of Judah, nor does the punishment
>on Judah apply to the people of Israel.
The northern kingdom of Israel had 11 tribes, and 390 years of sin.
The southern kingdom of Judah had 1 tribe, and 40 years of sin.
I think we would agree that it would be a stretch of the imagination for 10 of the tribes in the northern kingdom of Israel to have been innocent, and for one tribe to have been super-sinful, and yet for God to punish the whole northern kingdom with 390 years.
That considered, we can agree that the northern kingdom was probaly evenly sinful across the 11 tribes.
390 years / 11 tribes =~ 35.45455 years of sin debt per tribe
40 years / 1 tribe = 40 years
So along with punishing all 12 tribes in 606 BC, given that God is ...
1) consistent
2) fair
... God tallied the sin of the 11 tribes of the northern kingdom to 390 years by adding the sins of each tribe together, the same way he added 390+40 years to get the initial 430 years used to point to 1948 AD as the year the Jewish people would again rule themselves in the land of Israel as explained in Page not found.
The Bible must be allowed to interpret itself, for the Word of God to be consistent and inerrant across 66 books written throughout 1000 years. Imperfect, sinful people are not inerrant.
So the prophecy works, because God punished the 12 tribes collectively in 606 BC, and using the Bible to interpret itself, we reasonably expect that he did the same thing within the 11 tribes by collectively adding their sin.
Thank you again for your patience, see you all tomorrow night.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2004 4:24 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 145 of 189 (136232)
08-23-2004 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by NosyNed
08-23-2004 4:55 AM


Re: Darn!
>They missed it! If they had managed to get it right only a few decades
>before (well, perhaps 60 or 70 years) it would be a bit credible.
>However, 40 years after the fact is not prophecy. LOL
Again, you are applying a standard even someone as learned and intelligent as Isaac Newton would not have dared to have applied. Even Isaac Newton considered prophecy only for verifying the trustworthiness of the Word of God, and not for prognosticating.
ROTB
This message has been edited by ROTB, 08-23-2004 04:26 AM
This message has been edited by ROTB, 08-23-2004 04:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 146 of 189 (136237)
08-23-2004 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
08-23-2004 1:17 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
Jar,
Your example is datable. Do you mean that as a requirement? I understand Christians to believe Christ will return. Do you think that a simple statement "Christ will come again" qualifies as prophesy? I'm just trying to clarify how to determine what is and what is not a prophesy by your definition.
Thanks,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 08-23-2004 1:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 147 of 189 (136239)
08-23-2004 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by ROTB
08-23-2004 5:20 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
Israel had already been conquered more than 100 years before. The conquest of Judah was no punishment to Israel.
And yes we can agree that it make no sense for the punishment due to Israel to be inflicted on Judah. Which is precisely the problem since everything in the supposed fulfilment relates to Judah and not Israel. And you have the number of tribes wrong - Benjamin was in Judah, not Israel.
Nor does it make sense to divide years between the tribes. It is not as if one tribe was doing all the sinning while another tribe was completely blameless.
WHen you say that the Bible must be allowed to interpret itself it appears that you mean that the Bible must be twisted to fit in with your beliefs. Because much of what you say does not come form the Bible and seems to be little more than an excuse to make the Bible "say" what you want it to say. Clearly you do not truly beleive that the Bible is the Word of God or you would show it more respect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 5:20 AM ROTB has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 148 of 189 (136306)
08-23-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by ROTB
08-22-2004 11:43 PM


Re: On Prophesy.
God promised to scatter the Jews into the world if they did not repent, and then he did it. He also brought them back (1948AD) exactly when he said He would.
How does it make sense for this prophecy to be based on a calendar rooted in the false assumption that Jesus was born in 1 AD?
By definition this is a prophecy that can only be understood after the fact, or at the very earliest, after the establishment of the Gregorian calender.
606BC + 70 years (Jeremiah 25) + (360 years left x 7) = 1948 AD
Did you do this math before you posted it? The result of your equation is 1985, not 1948. (Remember too that you have to add one year - there's no Year 0. Fencepost error, you see.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 11:43 PM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ROTB, posted 08-24-2004 4:48 AM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 149 of 189 (136383)
08-23-2004 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ROTB
08-23-2004 1:52 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
Often folk don't understand me, I'm old and slow and sometimes have trouble explaining things.
If a prophecy is only understood after the fact, it is useless.
So how about showing us a specific Biblical prophecy that will come true in the second half of 2004 or during 2005.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ROTB, posted 08-23-2004 1:52 AM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ROTB, posted 08-24-2004 12:38 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 189 (136384)
08-23-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by lfen
08-23-2004 6:01 AM


Re: Sorry, but you still have not shown a prophecy.
Do you think that a simple statement "Christ will come again" qualifies as prophesy?
I'd say it is more a hope or statement of belief. For a prophecy to be of some use it really needs to be specific enough to tell what it protends, there has to be some dating even if just a rough estimate, and it has to be unexpected.
I can say that man will travel to Mars in the next two generations. That's specific, has a time line, but it's also not unexpected, so it's not a prophecy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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