Brian's Trinity Question

Great poem to put to music Buz! No arguments there. That poem sums up the christian faith as I was taught. Faith in Jesus may help one deal with the uncertainties of life. I'm sure you know that is what religion is all about; seeking & finding certainties in an uncertain world.
I too was taught that the H-S, Jesus, & the Father are co-equal, & this is how it was taught to me: The Sunday-school teacher said something like: The Father, Son, &H-S are like the 3 known dimensions in space-time, except that the Son became "God in the flesh". Pondering this, I came to believe that the physical person of Jesus was endowed with the Spirit of God which is the Holy Spirit, and the H-S is also the Spirit of the Father. That is how I believed the trinity to exist. I too was a practicing christian but now while I still hold great meaning to some of the things Jesus said & did, I am agnostic, and no longer believe in the trinity. Why not? Because of two men in early church history: Arius, & Augustine. Research them if you want.

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You are still missing the point, and you are limiting God in your anti-biblical belief. The point of the passage is that God is everywhere, it doesn?t matter where you go He is there. Put it this way, if you go to Miami and God is there, is it possible for me to go to Glasgow at the same that you are in Miami and God cannot be in Glasgow?

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The statements do no say that God is only present when someone is there, and absent when they aren?t, it claims that it doesn?t matter where you run to God is there, just ask Jonah who thought he could escape from God.

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Brian, with all due respect, I'm not missing the point. You're missing that little two letter word, if.IF I go here or there, "you are there."Or even Deuteronomy 4:39
Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, he is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
As I have stated previously, the Holy Spirit is that omnipresent member of the trinity which occupies many locations in the Universe simultaneously. He is often spoken of as referring to either the father or the son, depending on the context. Why? Because he is the spirit of both the father and the son.

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You have NEVER stated until now that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, this is the first time you have stated this. You have said it is present in millions of places at the same time, this is not omnipresence though. Omnipresence means ?Present everywhere simultaneously.? To say that the HS is ONLY present in millions of places is anti-Christian.

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Yah, you're correct. My unabridged dictionary does show a secondary meaning of it referring to less than all places, but not in the literal sense, so I stand corrected. However to say I'm being anti-Christian for my position on this is disingenuous to say the least and just not true. I see no place in the Bible that would lead me to believe the HS is in every clod or rock wherein the HS would have no purpose. I've cited Biblical examples where the HS occupies specific locations. So if my body becomes the temple of the HS, the implication is that if I'm alone in a room, he is not everywhere in that room. Does that make sense to you?

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You are again contradicting basic Trinitarian teachings, if any of the three entities is ?sent? anywhere it then puts that entity on a lesser level, on a subordinate footing with the other one or two entities, you are essentially anti-trinitarian.

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What does this mean? John 3:17, "For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved." Does it not imply that God sent his son into the world to save the world?What does this mean? Psalms 104:30 "He sends forth his Spirit; they are created." Am I anti Christian for taking this at face value, or what?

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Although I really couldn?t care that your interpretation of the Trinity is heretical, I am enjoying your take on it, I am surprised that a ?fundy? is so anti-biblical.

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Brian, in all this rhetoric of yours, you've yet to document one instance where I'm anti-Biblical.

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I am going to stick my neck out here Buz and guess that you are not a regular member of a Church, as in a member of a congregation of a denomination that meets in a building.

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As a matter of fact I've been in a full church service and either Sunday or Sabbath school class every week of my life for 58 years since becoming a Christian at age 10 except maybe a couple dozen weeks in all that time when I was unable to go for some reason or other not counting the hundreds of other services such as prayer services or evangelistic services. This includes a number of churches since I've lived and traveled much around the nation.

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I think that maybe you should find a church near you and go and discuss your take on the Trinity with a minister or some kind of qualified church leader.

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I keep pastors honest as a Biblical fundie and some have resented that, but I have a very good repoir with my current pastor with whom I pray and who has me teach adults each week. He is very intelligent, about to get his doctorate. He admits to learning things from me, who have no degree at all and I definitely learn from him. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message is a reply to:
Message 13 by buzsaw, posted

Thanks, Prozacman. I pray you will soon graduate from agnostic to spirit born believer. Having followed the prophecies closely for 50 plus years coupled with having experienced so many remarkable spiritual experiences, I could never become agnostic -- ever!

Hi Buz, I think you are totally misreading this. ‘If’ I go there I find that you are there, ‘If’ I don’t go there God is still there. The writer is saying that if I go somewhere God is already there, I don’t see how you can interpret this any other way. and on earth below, and He is God everywhere, whether you are there or not.This is really Sunday School stuff Buz, God is everywhere, God sees everything you do, this refers to everybody, so God HAS to be omnipresent, if he is not omnipresent He is not God. I am afraid it is true, either that or you have the strangest idea of God of any Chrsitian I have ever met. The samples you provide do not mean that these are the only places that the HS resides. The HS is omnipresent, so it HAS to be everywhere, if there is a part of deepest darkest Africa that the HS isn’t to be found in, then it isn’t omnipresent, it then is less than perfect and then it becomes less then God. Hey I agree with you that on ‘face value’ this is what it is saying, but how much of the Bible can we take at face value, not that much. If you want to take these at face value then it negates the Trinity, simple as that.You seem to have overlooked the fact that one of the verses you cited 'The father is greater than I’ was one of the very verses that Arius was exiled for using.Maybe you can clarify how the Father can be greater than I, yet they are equal as Trinitarian doctrine demands. Every time you say that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not equal, you are anti-biblical. How do you manage to keep pastors honest, all you are doing is telling them that their view of a fairytale is wrong and yours is right?You are certainly telling pastors who believe in the Trinity that they are wrong.Does your pastor share your opinion that the Son is subordinate to the Father?Brian.

Well Buz, What can I say? Oh Yeah, "Been there, done that" sounds good. And yes, I've had some 'remarkable spiritual experiences' too, if you want to call them that. Having read a book recently like Carl Sagan's, "Pale Blue Dot" is a quite a spiritual exercise in humility if you ask me. In it Dr. Sagan wrote something like; 'If God exists, then he must be greater than anything we insignificant humans could ever have imagined in any of our holy books'.
I don't hold much credence to Biblical prophesy anymore. I used to be a 'die hard'-fundee-pre-millenialist-rapture-believer!, but now I get "raptured" all the time simply by looking at something new through my telescope. I'm an amature astronomer, and once I get my new imaging equipment, I'll help professionals confirm (or deny) the existence of more extra-solar planets.
Anyway, depending on the denomination and one's standing on the "liberal to conservative-christian" scale, one may be premillenial, postmillenial, a-millenial, or whatever else in their views about prophesy & so-called future events. As for Brian's Trinity ?, I had never really given it a thought when I became agnostic, but now I think that unless one a-priori accepts the Trinity doctrine without ?(3 persons in 1 Godhead), then it looks like the trinity is really just 3 gods that share control of the universe. And I'm not inclined to think that either.
Oh yes, one more thing; Do you think christians are misinformed about 3 persons existing as one God? I was taught that trinity doctrine by my former fundee pastor, before him my Episcopal priest, & even before him my Methodist minister. ALL 3 interpreted the Bible the same way because all 3 taught me the same thing about the trinity. In fact, as far as I know, the consensus belief among all "orthodox" christians is that God exists as 3 PERSONS in one God. IOW, Father, Son, & H-S are 3 Persons in 1 eternal BEING. As schizophrenic as it sounds, that's what all non-Arian christians have been taught ever since Arianism was made a heresy waaaayy back in the 4th centuryAD. Just foaming at the mouth about something I no longer believe.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-24-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-24-2003]

Maybe this will help; I was taught that the Holy-Spirit since he is God is also omnipresent, AND I was also taught that the H-S existed in christians in a special sense. That special sense was referred to as a 'personal relationship' between one person(God) & another(me). Sort of like an indwelling psychologist!?! I must admit that it was an emotionally appealing aspect of my former religion. But it was the wrong therapy for me.

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I don't hold much credence to Biblical prophesy anymore. I used to be a 'die hard'-fundee-pre-millenialist-rapture-believer!,......

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I can understand that you don't hold much credence to Biblical prophecy. Most Christians don't because most pastors don't teach it. They're afraid it will cause friction and so forth. Thus the provable supernatural of the Bible is ignored and thus the apostacy, i.e. departure from truth as you have personally experienced. The prophecies, when fully studied and understood do for Biblical apologetics what the test tubes do in a lab. They test to arrive at knowledge to establish workable data.

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but now I get "raptured" all the time simply by looking at something new through my telescope.

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LOL. That's going to leave you behind, never to see those pearly gates and streets of gold, but to face the judge without an advocate. I pitty all who have so much light at hand and refuse to search out the goldAs for the three persons/three gods matter, maybe some day a thread would be interesting on that. If Christians would not insist on this three persons thing which the Bible nowhere mentions, there wouldn't be all this nonsense about three gods by outsiders. I appreciate all your comments.

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Maybe this will help; I was taught that the Holy-Spirit since he is God is also omnipresent, AND I was also taught that the H-S existed in christians in a special sense. That special sense was referred to as a 'personal relationship' between one person(God) & another(me). Sort of like an indwelling psychologist!?! I must admit that it was an emotionally appealing aspect of my former religion. But it was the wrong therapy for me.

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It's worked great for me these past 58 years since I received Jesus as saviour at age 10. I was taught early by capable people who instilled in me the need to daily read the scriptures, pray and attend worship and church school classes regularly. The HS, the spirit of Jesus and the Father grows in a believer as one gets into the scripture and exercises spiritually just as one would exercise for the Olympics. You go as far as you want to put into getting close to the creator. I followed through with this continually, including four years in the Air Force. I found that when one draws near to God, he draws near to us and reveals himself in unique and wonderful ways. He forces himself upon no one.

Hello Buzsaw, I am a LDS, I believe something similar but you seem to believe that even the father and the spirit are the same, so let me ask for scriptural Proof. I tend to believe that the father the son and holy spirit are 3 different personages. The father being one, The son being another and the holy spirit being another. Please show me otherwise in the scripture.Thank you-Quiz.

Ok, Brian

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Or even Deuteronomy 4:39
Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, he is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

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The problem with this is this scripture does not say anything about the physical location of God, or even to the remote that he dwells in everything. It simply reads that he is GOD of heaven and earth, nothing more nothing less.Let me ask, how can Elohim and Lucifer dwell in the same places? For it is also scripture that Elohim and Lucifer cannot be in the same places because the spirit of Contention does not dwell with the spirit of God. (a little rittle; If Gods kingdom and the Adversaries Kingdom where in one; which would stand?) I would say Gods kingdom but then, what would happen to the Adversaries Kingdom? (who cares right) Well if The LORD was in everything wouldn't he also be dwelling in the adversaries place? I would say YES. This is why The LORD is not in every location. You must apply all information obtained when thinking of the entity of the LORD for a corrupted vision of him is only from the adversary him self.-Quiz[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-25-2003]

Hi, It doesn’t say God of heaven, it says God in heaven. I didn’t say this verse was the ultimate scripture for the omnipresence of God, but Gods’ omnipresence is a basic Xian teaching, reject it if you like, it makes no difference to my life, it may make a difference to yours however. Well according to the Bible I’d say quite easily. They both dwelled in Heaven before Lucifer was booted out and they both inhabited Earth when they had their fun with Job. Which scripture would this contradictory information be in? I would say it depends on who is writing the fairytale. Presumably the adversary’s kingdom would be put on hold until God messes up again, then brought out of the deep freeze to frighten gullible humans into following a myth. Exactly, who cares about God or Lucifer? Yes indeed and scripture informs us that he does inhabit Hell as well. You are as strange a Xian as the heretic Buz.! I would think that a practicing Xian should know their Bible a little better.Here are two pieces of scripture disagree with your heretical views.1. Psalm 139 verse 8: If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.2. Ephesians 4 8-9 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?There are many more verses to support the belief that Jesus descended into Hell to preach the gospel to the lost souls there, in fact, this is a part of the Apostles Creed.So, with Jesus being God, God can enter Hell, and allegedly he did just that. The adversary certainly seems to have clouded your view of the Bible, this is Sunday school stuff and you appear not to know it.Brian.

I see your stand point. im done-Quiz

There is a catch, right?Brian

There is a catch, right?Brian No catch. You have made your choice. I believe it will change in time for you even have a choice after death, Unless you chose to be a son of perdition instead, even after seeing the Lord in all all his glory.

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-Quiz

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I didnt think we had a choice after, I thought we had to choose Jesus before we die?You are preaching an anti Xian teaching here as well Quiz.We do not have the choice after we die and see God in all his glory because we would not choose Him by faith alone.Faith is desirable, it takes no faith AFTER we see God in all His glory.Are you sure that you are a Xian, or are you here for a laugh?Brian