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Author Topic:   Sad what Bible Inerrancy can do to a mind!
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 79 (36781)
04-11-2003 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
04-10-2003 7:37 PM


Percipient and Coragyps,

There is no requirement that species go extinct, nor is there any requirement that they evolve. Some species have been around for a very long period of time.

Evolutionary change is driven by environmental pressures. Some species have somehow always found friendly niches through the ages, and so haven't changed.

By the way, these aren't your questions. They appear at many Creationist websites and have been asked here many, many times. They're terribly naive and rhetorical and are presented to the ignorant in order to prove just how stupid current scientific views are, as if any rational person would actually hold views so full of such obvious contradictions.

Am I not aloud to ask questions like these? You know why these questions come up is because evolution is impossible because there is no evidence. Even though year after year it will be taught to children. And it tells them that there are no absolutes. Truth is what you want it to be. Its like the religions of the world. How can they lead to the same God? They cannot because its nonsense. There can only be one way. And when we look at history it fits with the Bible no matter how much mankind will try to to remove it.

The problem with school is that they taught me I evolved from a lower animal and everything came together by chance. This is what comes to my mind when I think of scientists who believe in evolution and wil not even consider the absolutes of the Bible. Even though I post this I say this as one who understands nothing about the origins of life because knowone can except what the creator has revealed to us. I at one time rejected the Bible. We reject the Bible because we love darkness and we know inside we are convicted by the Lord because of our sin. It says He has set eternity in our hearts.

Romans 1:16-23 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

OR

Psalm 8:3-9 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained, What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, All sheep and oxen-- Even the beasts of the field, The birds of the air, And the fish of the sea That pass through the paths of the seas. O Lord, our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth!

OR

2 Peter 3:3-9
knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 04-10-2003 7:37 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Jesuslover153, posted 04-11-2003 8:19 PM drummachine has responded
 Message 50 by AdminPamboli, posted 04-11-2003 9:02 PM drummachine has responded
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 04-11-2003 9:18 PM drummachine has responded
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 04-11-2003 9:46 PM drummachine has not yet responded

  
Jesuslover153
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 79 (36786)
04-11-2003 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by drummachine
04-11-2003 7:45 PM


I have to agree with you and Funkmasterfreaky, just like fmf said in another post (the creationist scientist can it be?), we know that there is truth to what the creationists are looking into...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 7:45 PM drummachine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 8:47 PM Jesuslover153 has not yet responded

  
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 79 (36790)
04-11-2003 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jesuslover153
04-11-2003 8:19 PM


I'm just saying we can respect eachother. We can say, "Oh you believe this and I believe that." But love without truth is meaningless. Most of my life I didn't care about God. I hated God. My greatest struggle was how there could be a loving God with suffering? Now I understand and I understand how sinful I have been. And what the best part of it all is the hope we have in Christ. Of course we dont have all the answers but we know who does. I love this saying from Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis. "If He revealed everything we would have an infinite amount of books to read!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Jesuslover153, posted 04-11-2003 8:19 PM Jesuslover153 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-11-2003 8:57 PM drummachine has responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3765
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 49 of 79 (36791)
04-11-2003 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by drummachine
04-11-2003 8:47 PM


quote:
I love this saying from Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis. "If He revealed everything we would have an infinite amount of books to read!"

If God does not reveal anything more, we have nothing else to read, in elaboration of what was said in the Bible.

Might God be kind enough to reveal at least 1 more book of information?

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 8:47 PM drummachine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 9:07 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
AdminPamboli
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 79 (36793)
04-11-2003 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by drummachine
04-11-2003 7:45 PM


Warning to drummachine - not advancing discussion
quote:
Am I not aloud to ask questions like these? You know why these questions come up is because evolution is impossible because there is no evidence.
Here's several problems, drummachine:

Firstly, simply cutting and pasting a list of questions, that have been well-discussed here already, does not show a good attitude to the forum. There is a whole searchable archive of discussion on these issues to look at if you are genuinely open to researching this. There is also a wide range of refernce documents which you can find here http:///WebPages/Reference.html

Secondly, as a Christian you should think of the golden rule - do as you would be done by. Put yourself in the position where you are running a discussion board on, say, Christianity. how would you feel if every new non-Christian member went to one of the many "problems with the Bible" or "problems with Christianity" websites and just pasted in 20 or 30 questions and said "Answer that!" Would you regard them as good contributors to the discussion? Would you regard their attitude as fair and reasonable? How would you see the board surviving, or ever getting round to actually discussing things.

Thirdly, if you go to this section of this site http:///WebPages/CreationistWebsites.html you will find a list of 18 creationist websites. It's not as if anyone here is nnot aware of these issues, you know.

Fourthly, your posts are becoming lightweight in content and very heavy on off-topic preaching. In several recent posts you have done little more than post a paragraph or two on topic, if we're lucky, and then launch into a vague mish-mash of Bible quotes and, no doubt heartfelt, claims about "only one truth" or "man loves darkeness" or some such. This simply does not move the disussion along, and has to stop. Please confine your posts to the substance of the topic on hand. If you wish to discuss your views on religious truth or why man loves darkness, then you are very welcome to open topics for those subjects where they will be on-topic and relevant.

Finally, you make a lot of unsupported claims ... "evolution is impossible because there is no evidence", "it tells them that there are no absolutes","when we look at history it fits with the Bible no matter how much mankind will try to to remove it." All free-standing claims that are completely unsupported by anything in your discussion of the topic. If you want to do this kind of thing you are very welcome to open topics on such subjects. but even there you will need to keep on topic.

I'm trying to be patient with you, because originally I thought you were sincere. I am beginning to suspect otherwise. I see virtually no sign that you are willing to engage in discussion of the issues you cut and paste.

This is a friendly but firm warning. From now on, I will expect you to post on-topic, clearly dealing with the issue at hand. Otherwise you may find your posting privileges suspended for a while to give you time to reflect.

[This message has been edited by AdminPamboli, 04-11-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 7:45 PM drummachine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 9:29 PM AdminPamboli has responded

  
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 79 (36794)
04-11-2003 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Minnemooseus
04-11-2003 8:57 PM


There are many books in the world that God has given man the ability and blessing to make. The Bible is the history book of the universe. The kingdom of God for example. How could He fully explain it in His Word? There is brief detail but it also says no one comprehend how wonderful it will be for those who turn to Jesus Christ. It explains perfectly what life is about. It explains the beginning to the end.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-11-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-11-2003 8:57 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 79 (36796)
04-11-2003 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by drummachine
04-11-2003 7:45 PM


quote:
Am I not aloud to ask questions like these?

Sure, you're allowed. The reason we react the way we do is because we've heard these questions before. We've explained to others how they aren't relevant questions because evolution doesn't claim what these questions presuppose. And we know that these questions were devised by persons with a specific agenda, not for the purpose of seeking truth but for indoctrinating Christians and making them servants of their agenda. (I think that agenda could be, in part, greater influence of conservative christianity in government.)

quote:
You know why these questions come up is because evolution is impossible because there is no evidence.

You're quite mistaken. Agenda-driven creationists have told you that there is no evidence, and you believe them. Again, they do this to you to make you a pawn in their agenda, willing or no. They've taken advantage of your christianity to use you to help spread untruth. The evidence is out there and on this board, and it is legion.

quote:
it tells them that there are no absolutes.

Again, this is not found in the ToE. A creationist probably told you that to demonize the theory because it stands in the way of their narrow, literalist interpretation of the bible. Somebody out there is generating these untruths and feeding them to people. I can only think they do this to drive an agenda.

quote:
How can they lead to the same God? They cannot because its nonsense. There can only be one way.

Alternatively, there could be no way. That is to say, all religions are wrong because there are no gods. I'm not saying that's the way it is, but it's certainly a logical alternative.

quote:
The problem with school is that they taught me I evolved from a lower animal and everything came together by chance. This is what comes to my mind when I think of scientists who believe in evolution and wil not even consider the absolutes of the Bible.

If you think scientists refuse to even consider the bible, you're wrong. The bible has been studied for many, many years as a literary account, as a historical document, and in a number of other capacities. As a historical record, it has been found quite wanting. It's no more or less accurate than the mythological stories of any other culture. This isn't anti-bible bias, it's an honest conclusion form the data. The bible just isn't literally true - not because we refuse to accept that it could be, but because there's a lot of evidence that it's not.

Honestly, if I were a creationist (particularly a YEC), and I came to this board and discovered I was in profound error, I would wonder why other creationists had told me the things that they had. As I discovered they were aware of their falsehoods I could only conclude they had tried to use me to spread their untruths. That wouldn't make me feel good, and I could see how one could desire to avoid feeling that way. But that's no excuse for a persistence to believe something I know to be false...

------------------
Epimenedes Signature: This is not a signature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 7:45 PM drummachine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 9:34 PM crashfrog has responded

  
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 79 (36798)
04-11-2003 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by AdminPamboli
04-11-2003 9:02 PM


Re: Warning to drummachine - not advancing discussion
I'm not trying to post these things in a harsh way. You assume that I cut and pasted that yet you cannot even see me. Why are these questions being brought up? Because evolution cannot answer them. So if I went to a site where a non-Christian was asking quetions I would try to answer him. There is no such thing as the Golden Rule in the Bible. Look at what they posted. I was just trying to answer their questions. I make my statements very brief. There is no evidence of an animal "evolving" into another. So thats what I said. Now about the scriptures I posted. Am I not aloud to post that? Is this the thread for "faith" or not? Are we not aloud to use the Bible as reasons for the origin of life? The Bible is reasonable and I can explain why.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-11-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by AdminPamboli, posted 04-11-2003 9:02 PM AdminPamboli has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 04-11-2003 9:58 PM drummachine has responded
 Message 60 by AdminPamboli, posted 04-11-2003 10:15 PM drummachine has responded

  
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 79 (36799)
04-11-2003 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
04-11-2003 9:18 PM


It comes down to this then. Man loves darkness. He wants to believe life came from non-life so he can live any way he wants. Thus we see the destruction of nations like America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 04-11-2003 9:18 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 04-12-2003 5:37 AM drummachine has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18872
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 55 of 79 (36801)
04-11-2003 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by drummachine
04-11-2003 7:45 PM


Drum writes:

Am I not aloud to ask questions like these?

You mean allowed? Sure you're allowed. I was just reexpressing my wish that you would ask your own questions instead of trolling Creationist websites for evolutionary stumpers without ever understanding the questions you're copying.

You know why these questions come up is because evolution is impossible because there is no evidence.

It's statements like this that raise questions like those posed by the title of this thread. Why did you make such an ill-considered comment? You might not agree with the scientific interpretation of the fossil record and radiometric dating and geological layers and genetics, but there's plenty of evidence.

Even though year after year it will be taught to children. And it tells them that there are no absolutes. Truth is what you want it to be.

Are we still talking about evolution here?

Its like the religions of the world. How can they lead to the same God? They cannot because its nonsense. There can only be one way. And when we look at history it fits with the Bible no matter how much mankind will try to to remove it.

So you're particular subbranch of Christianity is the one, right and true religion of all the subbranches of all the religions of the world? Now I'm sure we're not talking about evolution. I think there are some other religions that might beg to differ.

Your Bible quotes are irrelevant to this topic, and they're not going to help you understand the scientific issues.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 7:45 PM drummachine has not yet responded

    
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 79 (36803)
04-11-2003 9:50 PM


One of the quotes was that in the end days man would willfully forget that everything was created and that there was a flood. That was written almost 2,000 years ago.

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 04-11-2003 10:01 PM drummachine has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18872
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 57 of 79 (36805)
04-11-2003 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by drummachine
04-11-2003 9:29 PM


Re: Warning to drummachine - not advancing discussion
It seems to me that AdminPamboli put considerable time and effort into explaining how you're coming across. I advise giving it some serious consideration, particularly the parts about the way you're using Creationist websites, and your failure to support your many assertions.

Perhaps it would help to take a longer view. I feel like you expect your points to be very convincing, and when they're not you blast us with out-of-context Biblical quotes and irrelevant baseless assertions. Perhaps you're expecting too much. People's minds aren't changed overnight. They have to be presented the information many times in many ways from many sources. Don't be in such a hurry. You'll win more converts with charm and persuasion than with mindless Bible thumping.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 9:29 PM drummachine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 10:20 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18872
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 58 of 79 (36806)
04-11-2003 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by drummachine
04-11-2003 9:50 PM


Drum writes:

One of the quotes was that in the end days man would willfully forget that everything was created and that there was a flood. That was written almost 2,000 years ago.

If you don't quote anything from whoever you're replying to, and you don't even say, "Hi, so-and-so," and you don't use the little reply icon at the bottom of the message, then how is anybody supposed to make sense of this?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 9:50 PM drummachine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 10:04 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 79 (36807)
04-11-2003 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Percy
04-11-2003 10:01 PM


Percipient,

Sorry about that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 04-11-2003 10:01 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
AdminPamboli
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 79 (36808)
04-11-2003 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by drummachine
04-11-2003 9:29 PM


Re: Warning to drummachine - not advancing discussion
quote:
I'm not trying to post these things in a harsh way.
That is not my concern. I was addressing a number of breaches of rules, and the problem that you introduce questions that are already thoroughly discussed in other topics, are off topic to this thread, and do not advance the discussion.
quote:
You assume that I cut and pasted that yet you cannot even see me.
In some cases you have apparently cut and pasted or directly copied.
quote:
Why are these questions being brought up? Because evolution cannot answer them.
Again this is an entirely unsupported assertion. If you want to see if evolution can answer them or not, why not participate in one of the detailed evolution discussion here?

Your record in taking part in discussion on evolution topics is, frankly, disgraceful. You opened the topic "Where is the evidence for evolution?" with this post www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=173&m=1#1 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=173&m=1#1">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=173&m=1#1 on Jan 23rd 2003. Apart from your inital question you took no further part whatsoever in that discussion, though it ran for 367 posts! That is simply not participating in good faith.

You opened the topic "evolution Q & A" with a huge post here, copied without acknowledgement, www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=187&m=1#1 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=187&m=1#1">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=187&m=1#1 But again you took no further part in the 14 posts of that thread before it was closed.

As far as I can see, you have not taken any further part in the Evolution forums on this board, but you have the cheek to post in the faith and belief, and Bible forums, "Why are these questions being brought up? Because evolution cannot answer them."

Do not be at all surprised if no one takes you seriously until you show that you are open to reasoned discussion in good faith.

quote:
There is no such thing as the Golden Rule in the Bible.
Matthew 7:12 is commonly known as the golden rule - my paraphrase is very widely known and first appeared in Matthew Henry's 17th century commentary on Matthew 7:12. "The golden rule of equity is, to do to others as we would they should do to us."
quote:
Now about the scriptures I posted. Am I not aloud to post that? Is this the thread for "faith" or not? Are we not aloud to use the Bible as reasons for the origin of life? The Bible is reasonable and I can explain why.
As for your postings from the Bible, if they illustrate or underwrite the subject matter of your post, and if your post is on topic, then no problem.

However, just because this is the Faith and Belief forum, does not mean that anything to do with faith and belief is relevant to any topic - that's why we have topics in the first place, to organize the discussion.

The warning stands - please stay on topic, and follow the forum rules. I strongly suggest you read them again to be clear about them: http:///WebPages/ForumRules.html
You are too frequently in breach of 1,2,4,5 and 6. Not a good record when there are only 8 rules!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 9:29 PM drummachine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by drummachine, posted 04-11-2003 10:25 PM AdminPamboli has responded

  
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