The end of heaven

I really didn't Quiz, but from your last couple of posts I'm assuming Mormon. Thanx.So, how do you know Joseph Smith was a prophet?How come such a relative new comer to the christian landscape would be the one true church? Where as all the others have been around for ages and preserve traditions much older. Are they all wrong???How unfortunate.Mormonism I belive, hasn't been covered much in this forum. I think it would be interesting to have a fallability thread on the book of mormon

I really didn't Quiz, but from your last couple of posts I'm assuming Mormon. Thanx. Yes indeed, but please refer to LDS as the denomination as this is there actual standpoint. The book of mormon is not all their teachings resides underSo, how do you know Joseph Smith was a prophet? I have already answered this.How come such a relative new comer to the christian landscape would be the one true church? Where as all the others have been around for ages and preserve traditions much older. Are they all wrong???How unfortunate. Not so much wrong but more incorrect!Mormonism I belive, hasn't been covered much in this forum. I think it would be interesting to have a fallability thread on the book of mormon Yes Indeed that would be good for the people of this forum to find such a church which cannot fall. I do ask when checking into any churchs that you use faith rather then hate because using hate wont get you anywhere except down the path you are already on.

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-Quiz

Hey QuizYou wrote:"I do ask when checking into any churchs that you use faith rather then hate because using hate wont get you anywhere except down the path you are already on."Do you honestly believe we are hateful when we say we are atheist(assuming that is what you mean by "the path you are already on.")
It is also not a good thing to go into an investigation with a preconcieved notion which is what you ask of us when you request that we use faith.If we go in already believing then any contrary information will be over looked or altered to assume our biased world view.
This is not proper since you or anyone else who offers a viewpoint may be deluded or have made anyone of a number of errors that we as humans make.

Hey Quiz
You wrote:"I do ask when checking into any churchs that you use faith rather then hate because using hate wont get you anywhere except down the path you are already on."Do you honestly believe we are hateful when we say we are atheist(assuming that is what you mean by "the path you are already on.")
It is also not a good thing to go into an investigation with a preconcieved notion which is what you ask of us when you request that we use faith.If we go in already believing then any contrary information will be over looked or altered to assume our biased world view.
This is not proper since you or anyone else who offers a viewpoint may be deluded or have made anyone of a number of errors that we as humans make. Ok, Sorry sidelined, what I was trying to say but lacking words is that if you are going to go through the bible you need to make sure when you say this is a false prophecy that when someone corrects you that you accept it rather then repeating it over and over trying to prove them wrong when it is clear that they are right. I ask that you check into hebrew and greek so you can understand the culture that the bible came from if that is what it would take to help you understand metaphore when you see it.

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-Quiz

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Hey QuizForgive my ignorance but could you tell me whether the following is metaphorical or actual?"Isa 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down."

Basicaly-QuizI will be back later..

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Originally posted by sidelined

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Forgive my ignorance but could you tell me whether the following is metaphorical or actual?

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"Isa 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down."

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Originally posted by Quiz

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Basicaly (sic)

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Quiz, I think sidelined asked an either/or question. Unless you mean to say that Is. 38:8 is basically metaphorical or actual.Sidelined, I think you already know, but Isaiah 38:8 is not intended as metaphor.

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Previously posted by Quiz

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I ask that you check into hebrew and greek so you can understand the culture that the bible came from if that is what it would take to help you understand metaphore when you see it.

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Quiz, it will be my pleasure to discuss with you the original Hebrew of this or any other OT passage.Namaste'Amlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 10-25-2003]

Well I am certain that as a metaphor it would be difficult to know just what it was trying to explain here.If it is literal and God made the sun move back in the sky ten degrees then barring the massive destruction that would have ensued due to inertia(which I am certain God could have adjusted for miraculously) we are still left with the dilemma of no other nation on earth having recorded what was undoubtedly the single greatest phenomena ever.

So, your saying that we have to throw out all of "orthodox" church history in favor of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon & his particular interpretation of the Bible??

Hi sidelined,

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Originally posted by sidelined

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. . .we are still left with the dilemma of no other nation on earth having recorded what was undoubtedly the single greatest phenomena ever.

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Of course. I didn't say it happened. I only said that it wasn't intended as metaphor.Namaste'Amlodhi

AmlodhiI know your position on the metaphor issue ,I was attempting to head off some points that may be raised by Quiz prior to solving the physics of the verse.

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Joseph Smith's name is not needed to make him a prophet. Prophets are ordained to be such Before they lived before they had a name. For in the council of heaven which was before the foundations of the earth, prophets were ordained.

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Zhimbo didn't ask if Joseph Smith was mentioned in the Bible by name, exactly.I think what he wants to know is what in the Bible leads you to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, rather than somebody else?

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Yes Indeed that would be good for the people of this forum to find such a church which cannot fall.

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Well, considering that ALL churches say this, you can't all be right. Why should I believe yours and not any of the other several hunderd Christian denominations?

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I do ask when checking into any churchs that you use faith rather then hate

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Is it OK if I use neither faith nor hate and instead use my critical thinking skills?In college, my best friend and roomate converted to Mormonism (IMO) in order to avoid dealing with the fact that her older brother repeatedly molested her when she was a little girl.There was another girl in my dorm who was a social misfit, and they got her to convert, too.The missionaries had been prowling my campus for some time, and I find it interesting that the people they snared were in an insecure, emotionally-vulnerable time in their lives.There's a reason these Mormon missionaries don't frequent, say, other church's parking lots, or synagogues, or even many places where older people are. They go after the young, insecure people who are away from their families for the first time and are in a stressful situation. These types of people also tend to be of breeding age.Now both women are married; the social misfit has a emotionally abusive (I have witnessed this first hand. He is very demeaning) Mormon husband and a bunch of kids. My best friend, who is very bright and very well-educated, married a very sweet but uneducated Mormon man who can't seem to get a job that pays much more than minimum wage. They have several kids. She is on anti-depression drugs.Since both were converts and both married Mormon men, their parents, because they are not Mormon, were not allowed to be present at their weddings, as only Mormons are allowed to be in the temple.For a religion that promotes "family", I find this very telling. Apparently, the only "family" that should be considered important to a Mormon are other Mormons.

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because using hate wont get you anywhere except down the path you are already on.

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What makes you think that the path I am on isn't a good one?

I find this especially telling, too - its a good read.:Mormon Family Values------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Yes, as Schraf said, the name "Joseph Smith" isn't really what I was getting at, although I was being a bit coy.