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Author Topic:   Dating the Exodus
jar
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Posts: 34136
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Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 6 of 317 (132499)
08-10-2004 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
08-10-2004 6:51 PM


Fact: Israel in Egypt about a total of 400 years.
Please provide some documentation or evidence. Even some logical or reasonable explaination for that belief might help.
Fact: About the last 100 in slavery.
See above.
WILLOWTREE, the problem is that no one has ever brought any evidence that there were ever Hebrews in Egypt until much, much later. There are a few scarabs with parts of the OT on them but they all date from around 6BC.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 11 of 317 (132779)
08-11-2004 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
08-11-2004 11:31 AM


Re: Philistines
Brian
One key feature of the Bible is that it was written to be read by a contemporary audience. As place names change and language evolves, is it reasonable to assume that more recent additions, expansions or modifications would refelct the idiomatic language of the period.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 14 of 317 (132791)
08-11-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
08-11-2004 12:03 PM


Re: Philistines
Paul
That is exactly what I'm saying. If you read the Tales of King Arthur you find that he is pictured as though he lived, dressed and behaved like the good folk at the time the stories were written or told, complete with medieval castles and armor. But Arthur, if he lived, (which I think likely) lived during the Roman retreat period and would have dressed more like a Roman general than a later knight.
It is very normal to transfer current idiom onto past events. In addition, the whole concept of truth and correctness has evolved over time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 22 of 317 (133628)
08-13-2004 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Brian
08-13-2004 2:32 PM


Re: Life begins
I am never drinking again.
Yeah, right.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 37 of 317 (133702)
08-13-2004 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hydarnes
08-13-2004 6:05 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
Actually, that source seems to imply a possible Israeli conquest in the mid-1200rds.
Yadin attributed this destruction layer to the Israelite campaigns led by Joshua and dated it to 1230 BCE.
from Hydarnes link

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 42 of 317 (133718)
08-13-2004 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hydarnes
08-13-2004 6:35 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
I'm not sure how the mid 1200rds date tallies with the Bible, but I personally think there is a better chance of supporting an Exodus date around 1200 than one in the 1500s.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 48 of 317 (133739)
08-13-2004 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hydarnes
08-13-2004 8:19 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
Nevertheless, there have been remains uncovered by the Austrian Manfred Bietek Tel el Daba which betray an Israelite origin.
I am pretty familar with the Austrian Tel el Daba digs but I had not seen anything from them relating to Israel or Hebrews. They did find 60 or so mastaba type Hyksos burials not too long ago.
Can you provided so links to the connection between Tel el Daba and Israelites?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 50 of 317 (133754)
08-13-2004 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by John Williams
08-13-2004 10:28 PM


Somewhat OT
Tall Hesban (Hesbon) has been extensively studied. It's in Jordan and was extensively studied between 1968 and 1976. Unfortunately, it then just sat for twenty years or more. In 1997 study with the possibility of resoration began again.
Once again, it appears that occupation was from 1200 on up and not earlier in the 1500s and 1400s.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 53 of 317 (133774)
08-14-2004 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Hydarnes
08-14-2004 12:11 AM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
Of the 21 distinct levels, there seems to have been a major conquest around 1200, as shown in your link, but the final destruction was when the Assyrians finally destroyed the city in 732 BCE and it was not occupied again.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 60 of 317 (133829)
08-14-2004 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Vidusa
08-14-2004 12:54 PM


Re: Joseph - Exodus
Let me welcome you to EvC. Hope that you enjoy your stay and that we can learn much from you.
The problem with that cronology is that it is based first on an event, the flood, that does not seem to have ever happened, and second, on the ages of people that have no evidence of their even having lived. Finally, Joseph, Joseph getting sold into slavery, Joseph going before Pharoah, and all the other dates and events are without any evidence as well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 64 of 317 (133847)
08-14-2004 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Vidusa
08-14-2004 1:55 PM


The Bible is clear and simple about this chronology.
The Ring Trilogy is clear and simple about the chronology of Middle Earth. Should I accept the chronology of Middle Earth?
If we look at the Bible to provide literal chronologies, we cannot get past the second verse of Genesis.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 70 of 317 (133872)
08-14-2004 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hydarnes
08-14-2004 2:48 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
P.S. I haven't seen you respond any further concerning the Habiru/Apiru, did I miss where you conceded that there is a strong possibility that the name *could* have included the Isrealites who were starting to invade canaan at roughly the same time?
Actually, since the name was used throughout the region by Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugariti, from about 2000-1200BCE, to describe various landless and lawless peoples covering an area from Iran to Egypt, it is very unlikely that it refers to the Hebrews. Instead, it appears to be a generic term for landless nomads.
Once again, you really have to twist the evidence to try to make it conform to the Bible in any way. And even if you accepted that interpretation, it appears that the Habiru left the Delta region sometime around 1200 and not in a major Exodus, but simply straggeling off, family by family, clan by clan over a period of hundreds of years.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 74 of 317 (133891)
08-14-2004 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Cold Foreign Object
08-14-2004 5:42 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
Actually, it is more likely related to the Akkadian term Habbatu which refered to a robber or brigand.
It was a generic term used by many regional powers to refer to landless people that primarily made their living by theft and highway robbery. They were located all over the Middle East and the term was in use from around 2000 on. There is no indication that it refers to any particular people and certainly not to any region.
For more information on the origin of the term Check here.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 78 of 317 (133974)
08-14-2004 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Hydarnes
08-14-2004 11:18 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
You appear to completely forget that Akhenaten was not contemporary with 1200, and yet we have very clear historical records that place the appearance/invasion of the Habiru exactly during that period---correlating all too perfectly with a post-Exodus/Joshua invasion.
Actually, I imagine you're talking about the Armana letters that seem to be complaining about raids by nomads and semi-nomads, shifting aliances that served as mercenaries in various local conflicts. IIRC, they are from around 1340 BCE and no where refer to anything similar to a major invasion. At the time of those letters, Palestine cities were vassals of Egypt.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 85 of 317 (133988)
08-15-2004 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Hydarnes
08-15-2004 12:06 AM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
That looks like you're quote mining Letter EA 286, IIRC.
Actually, he is listing what he imagines are rumors that may have reached the Pharoah implying that he might have revolted. Here it is in it's intirety.
To the king, my Lord, thus speaks Abdu-Heba, your servant. At the feet of the king, my Lord, seven times and seven times I prostrate myself. What have I done to the king, my Lord? They blame me before the king, my Lord, saying: " Abdu-Heba has rebelled against the king, my Lord ". I am here, as far as I am concerned, it was not my father, nor my mother, who put to me in this position; the arm of the powerful king lead me to the house of my father! Why would I commit a transgression against the king, my Lord.
While the king, my Lord, lives, I will say to the commissioner of the king, my Lord: " Why do you favour the Hapiru and are opposed to the rulers? " And thus I am accused before the king, my Lord. Because it is said: " Lost are the territories of the king, my Lord ". Thus am I calumniated before the king, my Lord! But may the king, my Lord know, that, when the king sent a garrison, Yanhamu [1] seized everything, and... the land of Egypt... Oh king, my Lord, there are no garrison troops here! (Therefore), the king takes care of his land! May the king take care of his land! ! All the territories of the king have rebelled; Ilimilku caused the loss of all the territories of the king. May the king take care of his land!
I repeat: Allow me to enter the presence of the king, my Lord, and let me look into both eyes of the king, my Lord. But the hostility against me is strong, and I cannot enter the presence of the king, my Lord. May the king send garrison troops, in order that I may enter and look into the eyes of the king, my Lord. So certain as the king, my Lord, lives, when the commissioners come, I will say: Lost are the territories of the king. Do you not hear to me? All the rulers are lost; the king, my Lord, does not have a single ruler left. May the king direct his attention to the archers, and may the king, my Lord,send troops of archers, the king has no more lands. The Hapiru sack the territories of the king. If there are archers (here) this year, all the territories of the king will remain (intact); but if there are no archers, the territories of the king, my Lord, will be lost!
To the king, my Lord thus writes Abdu-Heba, your servant. He conveys eloquent words to the king, my Lord. All the territories of the king, my Lord, are lost.
I see nothing in this that even hints of an invasion but as I said, is far more a story of intrigue and revolt.
In addition, it does not imply that the Hapiru are a group that is hired by, or at least condoned by the Pharoah.
While the king, my Lord, lives, I will say to the commissioner of the king, my Lord: " Why do you favour the Hapiru and are opposed to the rulers? "
Sorry, but there is no support there for an organized invasion as opposed to simple city to city conflict and revolt.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:06 AM Hydarnes has replied

Replies to this message:
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