Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 49 (9181 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: joebialek123
Post Volume: Total: 918,278 Year: 5,535/9,624 Month: 560/323 Week: 57/143 Day: 19/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Dating the Exodus
Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5309 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 104 of 317 (134066)
08-15-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by jar
08-15-2004 1:29 AM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
Again, an unspecified expert ploy. This is so tenuous that even you wont make such a claim. There simply is no evidence that Habiru is a designation of the Hebrews.
Finally, the estiamtes I've seen for dating the Jerusalem letters place them in the mid 1300s, too late for the 1447 Exodus and too early for the more reasonable mid 1200s Exodus.
You really amaze me jar. As of yet, I have not once seen you concede to anything of particular that I or Hydarnes have pointed out. Here Hydarnes is referring to one of the world's most renowned epigraphists, and you will continue to boldly assert that this is "yet another unspecified expert"? I'm not even going to bother mentioning his name, since you know very well Hydarnes has named him.
Jar, you claim to have seen the video "The Exodus Revealed"? I suppose you laughed your way through so much that you didn't even notice or hear that this renowned epigraphist was interviewed RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES. This goes to show how biased you really are. You completely ignore the fact that there are experts out there who support the ideas presented. So basically, you can say that you laughed at several famous doctors. Next time, pay more attention to what you watch, as well as read.
Also, please show yourself a little more open. Brian is a good example for you. Do you want to be known as the one who is place on the "annoying list"? You have a really bad tendency to annoy people--and your attitude really rubs people the wrong way. It can be really really buggy, and I hope you change.

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 1:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 1:27 PM Lysimachus has not replied
 Message 110 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-15-2004 6:47 PM Lysimachus has not replied

Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5309 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 105 of 317 (134067)
08-15-2004 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by CK
08-15-2004 12:11 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
ROFL Charles...I edited it...my bad....that's what happens on a network...someone comes, logs in, and posts on one comp. You forget, and think you're still logged in from the last time you posted...argh.

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by CK, posted 08-15-2004 12:11 PM CK has not replied

Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5309 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 106 of 317 (134068)
08-15-2004 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by CK
08-15-2004 12:11 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
*double post*
This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 08-15-2004 11:19 AM

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by CK, posted 08-15-2004 12:11 PM CK has not replied

Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5309 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 169 of 317 (134735)
08-17-2004 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by CK
08-17-2004 1:52 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
Charles, I just got back from a doctor appointment 3hrs. away last night. I don't have time to be dealing with every cotton pickin' thread that is challenging us. Let's stick with the issues at hand for now (The Exodus and Jericho)...and perhaps next year we'll talk about the blood

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by CK, posted 08-17-2004 1:52 PM CK has not replied

Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5309 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 171 of 317 (134747)
08-17-2004 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Cold Foreign Object
08-17-2004 4:27 PM


That's what I'd like to know. I looked for it a few days back, never found it, so I gave up.

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-17-2004 4:27 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Brian, posted 08-17-2004 5:16 PM Lysimachus has not replied

Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5309 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 277 of 317 (147048)
10-03-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Cold Foreign Object
09-16-2004 11:38 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
I appreciate your untiring research Willowtree regarding the dating of the Exodus. I had plans to refute the 553yr/Judges theory as well as the the 300yr theory of 1Kings 6:1. But you seem to be a superb job at indirectly cutting both of these theories down.
Not to support the 553yr/Judges theory, but only to add more material to and polish and support the ca 1450 theory, here is a link you might want to read: Exodus1540BCHyksos
It will get you angry. I've read a number of counter arguments to this theory. Interestingly, the 553yr/Judges theory (the point is to say that 480rs is a schematic number, and that the periods of the judges contradict1Kings 6:1). Of course, I disagree, as the forumula for coming up with 553 yrs. is severely flawed.
Now I will go one to question you and ask why you are so sure the date/year is 1453 BC for the Exodus? You do realize that even Moller himself when he states "1446 BC" he adds that there are at least "15 yrs uncertainty"? There is only 7 years difference between 1446 BC and 1453 BC, so seriously, this should not be something even worth argueing about. I guess the disagreement lies where one believes Solomon's reign ended? If you believe Solomon's reign ended at 938 BC, then sure you will arrive at 1453. If you believe Solomon's reign ended in 931 BC, then you will arrive at 1446 BC. So why do you prefer the former?
You might be interested in knowing why W.A.R. and Moller believe in the 1446 BC date to be the relative correct date, give or take 15 years. I think you are too stiff in this area. At least a few years flexibility might do you some good--especially when it comes to proving the Exodus:
http://www.wyattnewsletters.com/articles/chronology.htm
(Make sure you click "continue to chart" on next page after you are done reading this first page)
After you are done with that, you might be interested in the well done research Moller has put together which I have been able to provide online:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
45. WHEN DOES THE EXODUS TAKE PLACE?
In the biblical texts there is a basis on which to draw up a chronology for the periods of time with which this book deals. Important key events can also be verified with other historical sources.
45.1. The Destruction of Jerusalem
The destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC (48. J.R. Bartlett (1997) Archaeology and Biblical Interpretation, Routledge, London, England.), is the starting point of this chronology. This event is referred to the Bible and is named in a definite way in historical sources. These sources originate from Babylonian documents, with astronomic references to points in time.
Ordinary encyclopedias also give this date for the destruction of Jerusalem. This date is discussed thoroughly in literature. The destruction of Jerusalem occurs, and the captivity in Babylon begins, in the 19th year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, and the 11th year of Zedekiah’s reign (II Kings 25:2).
45.2. The Books of Kings
King Zedekiah was reigning in Jerusalem when Nebuchadnezzar invaded the city, and the incidents occurred which led to the destruction of Jerusalem (II Kings 25:1-17). This is the last event mentioned in chapter 25 of the second book of Kings. Every preceding king is mentioned in the two books of Kings: 47 chapters in all. If one counts back from king Zedekiah through the books of Kings, one comes to the beginning of the first book of Kings, which refers in detail to king Solomon.
Every king in between is specified, especially with regard to the length of his reign. Furthermore, during many years the country was divided into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah respectively. This means that there are two parallel royal lines, which make a number of cross references possible since at regular intervals they refer to each other or to other events. Some things remain uncertain, but these lie within relatively narrow margins (when one refers to the thorough, parallel royal lines), in spite of the length of the period and fact that the events occurred several thousand years ago.
45.3. King Solomon
To the year 586 BC (the destruction of Jerusalem), can be added approximately 384 years (from the royal lines), which gives us approximately 970 BC as the first year of the reign of Solomon. King Solomon reigned for 40 years.
Later, in the first book of Kings a precise comment is made, which relates the reign of king Solomon to the date of the Exodus:
And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD. (I Kings 6:1)
Editors note: Ah yes! This you say is absolute bogus and has been proved wrong for proving the Exodus date to have occurred in 1446 BC. But as you will see my friends, this verse has more meaning to it than you think. As you will discover throughout the upcoming charts, diagrams, and additional methods for dating, you will see that the 1446 BC date is one of the most unshakable!
Additional Emphasis from Book: There is a growing support for an approximate year of 1446 BC for the Exodus compared to other suggestions (25. A.J. Hoerth (1998) Archaeology and The Old Testament, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, USA.). Furthermore, 14 C-dating of remains of Jericho suggests that the destruction to have happened around 1400 BC (27. B.G. Wood (1990) Dating Jericho’s destruction, Biblical Archaeology Review, 5.). The destruction of Jericho would, according to the hypothesis of this book, have occurred approximately 1406 BC.
The house of the Lord is the temple in Jerusalem. To arrive at the fourth year of king Solomon’s reign, four years are subtracted from approximately 970 BC, giving us approximately 966 BC. That year, states the biblical text (I Kings 6:1), it was exactly 480 years since the Exodus took place. Then approximately 966 can be added to 480, giving approximately 1446 BC.
Figure 347: A summary of how to calculate the approximate year of the Exodus, according to the biblical texts.
According to this calculation in figure 347, in this book the Exodus is said to have occurred in approximately 1446 BC. There is some uncertainty about this date. Firstly there are four uncertain years (miscount) during the last 2000 years, connected with the birth of Jesus and the founding of Rome respectively. This uncertainty is generally known. With regard to other years given in figure 347, 480 years and 36 years are individual indications (not calculated/worked out). In the presentation of the royal lines, there may be a margin of error of about a decade. This figure is an estimate. With 4 + 10 years presumed uncertainty, there may be a total of around 15 years uncertainty in the years given in figure 347.
45.4. Estimation of the Period in Captivity
When we now know the probable point in time of the Exodus (approx. 1446 BC), the next step is to begin to count from the birth of Abraham.
Editors note: The following information is crucial for the critics not in favor of placing the Exodus date at 1446 BC. Thus, it is about to be shown that the 1446 BC date can be arrived via different routes of calculation
We put Abraham’s birth at the year 0, and count forwards according to the biblical texts. Isaac is born when Abraham is 100 years old (Gen. 21:5), Jacob is born when Isaac is 60 (Gen. 25:26) and Joseph is born when Jacob is 91 years old (Gen. 41:46-47; 45:6, 9-10; 47:9). Furthermore, Joseph attains his high position in Egypt when he is 30 years old (Gen. 41:41), and Jacob and h is family move to Egypt when Joseph is 39 years old (Gen. 47:9). As is shown in figure 348, this gives a total period of 290 years.

Figure 348: A summary of the chronology from Abraham to Joseph, according to the biblical texts.
There are now two time axes which must be linked together. The biblical texts give three different passages which directly indicate a time span from an event with Isaac to the year of the Exodus. The first of those passages is:
And he said unto Abram, ‘Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not their’s, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.’ (Gen. 15:13-14)
Here Abraham receives a prophecy from the Lord which contains a great deal of information, but the prophecy is couched in general terms. Abraham learns the following:
1. Abraham’s offspring (Isaac and onwards) will live in a foreign country, but it is not said in which foreign country/countries.
2. They will be subject to the laws of that country.
3. They will be slaves, but it is not indicated in which country nor for how long.
4. Later they will leave this country with great possessions.
5. This will, taken all together, happen during a period of about 400 years.
They would not be slaves all the time nor would they be in Egypt all the time and a rounded figure of the length of time is given. They learn of this in general terms and this prophecy lives on among the people of Israel. When Joseph dies in Egypt the people of Israel have to promise on oath to take Joseph’s bones with them when they leave the country later on, although this date is some 190 years in the future.
One can understand the suffering of the people of Israel as slaves in Egypt, and that this became particularly hard when 400 years had passed and still nothing happened. But something was happening. Moses had been in the land of Midian for about 10 years, having fled fro the Egyptian army.
At the Exodus reference is made to this prophecy:
Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt. (Ex. 12:40-41)
It should be noted that they kept a careful check on prophecy. It was exactly on the day, 430 years later, that everything was fulfilled. A foreign country implies that one lives in some else’s country, i.e. one does not have a country of one’s own. They became slaves and they also received many possessions as gifts from the Egyptians.
The question is to which event the prophecy refers. The event would have happened 430 years before the Exodus, which gives us about the year 1876 BC. In the epistle to the Galatians Paul gives the following interpretation:
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed is were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. (Gal. 3:15-17)
To summarize, these passages tell us the following:
1. There were 430 years between when the law was given, and the prophecy to Abraham concerning his offspring (Isaac). Here Paul refers to the passage discussed above (Ex. 12:40-41).
2. So what happened with Isaac that these passages refer to? That which happened about 1876 BC?
3. In the biblical text Gen. 22:1-19 this event is dealt with under the heading Abraham commanded to offer Isaac. We have touched on this event in chapter 4.
45.5. The Sacrifice of Isaac
The biblical text tells us the following:
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
(Gen. 22:1-19)
To summarize, these concern the following:
1. Abraham shows his readiness to sacrifice his son Isaac in a blood sacrifice on Mount Moriah. Human sacrifices were common in the area, but this was only a test for Abraham.
2. On that day 430 years later, a lamb without blemish was to be sacrificed (blood sacrifice) in every family of the people of Israel, to avoid the death of every firstborn. It is the institution of the Jewish Passover, and the beginning of the Exodus. The promise given to Abraham is fulfilled that year, with liberation from slavery, and the covenant given with the stone tablets on Mount Sinai.
3. As Paul explains (Gal.3:15-17), on precisely the same day and the same mountain, slightly more than 1900 years later, Jesus Christ is sacrificed on the summit of Mount Moriah in blood sacrifice with the promise of liberation, and the institution of the new covenant. It is the institution of the Christian Easter.
4. It is on Mount Moriah that Old Jerusalem is built. The site of the temple was up on Mount Moriah. Here the Jews have the western wall as a sacred place, the part of the temple which is still standing today. Here the Muslims have two mosques on the site where the temple stood. Close by, also on Mount Moriah, the Christians have Golgotha (the place of sacrifice) and the empty grave.
It is this event, the offering of Isaac, which permeates the whole Bible, and is indicated as the point of reference for these 430 years. We can then, with relative precision, put together these two time axes (figures 347, 348).
45.6. How old was Isaac?
The question then remaining is what age Isaac was when he was to be sacrificed.
The following four alternatives spring to mind:
1. Isaac argued logically with his father Abraham. Isaac should then have been at least 10 years old. However there is no specific reference to age.
2. One might speculate that Isaac was as old as Jesus Christ when he was sacrificed at the same place. In that case Isaac was 33 years old, but there is no reference to this age either.
3. Isaac has to carry all the firewood the last part of the way to the place of sacrifice. A relatively large amount of firewood was needed for the sacrifice, so it must have been heavy to carry. This implies that Isaac was physically stronger than Abraham, who carried only the fire and the knife. According to this comment Isaac would have been in his late teens.
4. But there is a reference to another age. In order for the sacrifice of Isaac (which did not need to be carried out) to be righteous, then Isaac should have been adult and responsible for his actions. The Bible gives us several references as to when a man was considered adult and independent.
a) To enlist as a soldier a man had to be 20 years old (Ex. 3:11-15).
b) In a census men old enough to bear arms were counted (Ex. 38:26).
c) The age at which the people could be penalized was 20 (Numb. 14:29, 32:11)
Based on this argument Isaac should have been between 10 and 33 years old. Most probably Isaac was 20 years old, since he would have been responsible for his actions, adult enough to take the consequences of his decisions, and of the age to be penalized when it was a matter of a vicarious sacrifice (punishment for the sins committed by the people).
45.7. Combining the Time Axes
In the link between the two time axes in figures 347 and 348, the age of 20 has therefore been used for the point in time (the sacrifice of Isaac) to which the Bible refers. The total time axes can be seen in figure 350.
Approximately 10 years of uncertainty should be added to the time axes in figure 350, because of the uncertainty about Isaac’s age at the sacrifice on Mount Moriah.
Therefore, the total time axes in figure 350 has an estimated uncertainty of about 25 years altogether. In Table 11, details of the calculation of the royal lines of Judah and Israel are shown.
() co-rules 4 y with Asa. (2) co-rules with Ahab and Ahaziah. (3) co-rules 5 y with Jehoshapaht. (5) co-rules 2 y with Joash. (5) co-rules 13 y with Jehoash. (6) co-rules 25 y with Amaziah.. (7) co-rules 2 y with Pekahiah. (8) co-rules 2 y with Uzziah. (9) co-rules 8 y with Jotham. (10) co-rules 3 y with Ahaz.
(see also 49. E.R. Thiele (1951) The Mysterious Numbers of Hebrew Kings, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, USA)
The Exodus Case, by Dr. Lennart Moller, pg. 196-204
please pay attention to img widths so we can keep page widths to a normal size. - The Queen
This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 10-03-2004 09:08 PM

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2004 11:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Lysimachus, posted 10-03-2004 6:29 PM Lysimachus has not replied

Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5309 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 278 of 317 (147051)
10-03-2004 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Lysimachus
10-03-2004 6:16 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
BTW, Willowtree, plz do not take my last post as intended on "refuting" you. It's actually to aid you against the non-ending onslaught of the "anti-biblical account" folk--but mine just has a small twist that shouldn't really be anything to get into a serious debate over. The fact is, it's pretty much settled that the Exodus date is c.a. 1450 BC.

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Lysimachus, posted 10-03-2004 6:16 PM Lysimachus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-03-2004 7:36 PM Lysimachus has replied

Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5309 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 280 of 317 (147072)
10-03-2004 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Cold Foreign Object
10-03-2004 7:36 PM


Re: EXODUS DATE: 1453 BC
quote:
They readily admit that the Bible is the "only" source for the Exodus yet they must capriciously ignore a large section of the source in order to "refute" the source.
The Bible may be the only source for describing the supernatural associated with an event, but in most cases there are outside sources to help us pin-point with relative accuracy that an event did take place based on the results and clues left from other ancient civilizations (one example is that the ancient Assyrians leave clues to the landing place of the biblical Noah's Ark). Let us say however that there was no archaeological evidence for an Exodus whatsoever. Does that mean we must completely negate the fact? Why must we accept it?
Think of it this way. Why do we accept that the Battle of Hastings took place when William the Conqueror invaded England? Of course, because we have records that tell us the event occurred. Do we necessary have any archaeological remains that would indicate this battle took place? Not especially.
What if all the records (different sources) from different countries were compiled into one book? It would then become a book like the Bible---"ONE source" (of course, this is not true however). This is exactly the mistake critics make. They continuously categorize the Bible as a "one source" document--failing to realize that the Bible is composed of numerous books written by numerous authors who all agreed on say, one thing---that the Exodus occurred. Why did John or Paul, for example, confirm the record?
Obviously, the more you think about it, the Bible is not a fairly tale. It's a book that intermingles historical events, prophecy, and teaching as an act of mercy from God and inspired by God so that man may have a guide in their everyday struggles of life.
This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 10-03-2004 09:46 PM

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-03-2004 7:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by crashfrog, posted 10-04-2004 12:08 AM Lysimachus has not replied
 Message 282 by Khaemwaset, posted 10-04-2004 12:09 AM Lysimachus has not replied
 Message 283 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2004 4:09 AM Lysimachus has not replied
 Message 284 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-04-2004 7:54 PM Lysimachus has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024