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Author Topic:   Dating the Exodus
Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 317 (133604)
08-13-2004 2:07 PM


Just one question Brian.
If you're comfortable with disclosing: your age?

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Brian, posted 08-13-2004 2:32 PM Hydarnes has replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 317 (133656)
08-13-2004 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Brian
08-13-2004 2:32 PM


Re: Life begins
Well, it kills brain cells. I hope that's a scientific fact we can both agree on.
Besides, I think we need all we can get if we expect to survive in an intellectually active environment.
BTW, as much as my language with respect to your literary material might occasionally seem acerbic, I must admit that I hold a deal of respect for you as an opponent (even if I don't agree with your conclusions, you certainly put time and effort into your compositions), and I would like to remind you that all negative comments are strictly confined to the ideological sphere and certainly not personal, although I won't declare absolute abstinence from allowing certain other individuals on this board to, at times, provoke my solar plexus.
G'day.
This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-13-2004 03:51 PM
This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-15-2004 11:06 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Brian, posted 08-13-2004 2:32 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Brian, posted 08-13-2004 4:59 PM Hydarnes has not replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 317 (133674)
08-13-2004 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Cold Foreign Object
08-13-2004 5:23 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
What isn't obvious about Hebrew/Habiru/apiru ?
In scripture: Eber/Heber/Hebrew.
You are asserting contrary to what is obvious BECAUSE the obvious evidences against your position.
And don't forget that even Frank Moore Cross (arguably the number one epigraphist in the world) said: "I do think that the term Apiru is the origin of the term HebrewDr. Frank Moore Cross, Professor Emeritus Harvard University. (Appearance on The Exodus Revealed)
And btw Brian, you'll see an allusion to this in my rebuttal to your stele post: http://EvC Forum: Information -->EvC Forum: Information
Hopefully in the near future the admins will validate the proposition so you can have a fair chance at responding.
This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-13-2004 04:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-13-2004 5:23 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 317 (133683)
08-13-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Brian
08-13-2004 5:42 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
If Barak ended the occupation of Hazor, then the biblical account of Joshua's action there is inaccurate.
Incorrect. From my knowledge of Hazor, it was reoccupied several times after a series of destructions and rebuilding that occured.
Your argument is wanting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Brian, posted 08-13-2004 5:42 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 08-13-2004 5:58 PM Hydarnes has replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 317 (133686)
08-13-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Brian
08-13-2004 5:42 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
"According to the Biblical narrative, Jabin, the King of Hazor, headed a coalition of Canaanite cities against the advancing Israelites, led by Joshua. The Israelites won the battle and Joshua burned and ravaged the city (Jos. 11:1 - 12).
"And Joshua turned back at that time, and took Hazor, and smote its king with the sword: for Hazor formerly was the head of all those kingdoms. Everyone in it they put to the sword. They totally destroyed them, not sparing anything that breathed, and he burned up Hazor itself .. Israel did not burn any of the cities built on their mounds - except Hazor." (Jos 11:10-12)
Evidence of this violent destruction by burning was discovered in various areas of excavation of the site. Another Israelite battle, this time against a Canaanite army led by Sisera, Jabin's general, is described in the Book of Judges, Chapter 4."--http://unixware.mscc.huji.ac.il/~hatsor/index.htm
This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-13-2004 05:06 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Brian, posted 08-13-2004 5:42 PM Brian has not replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 317 (133688)
08-13-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brian
08-13-2004 5:58 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
A number of sources confirm this all over the net.
Here's an example:
http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Hazor_Ebeling.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 08-13-2004 5:58 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 08-13-2004 6:31 PM Hydarnes has replied
 Message 43 by Brian, posted 08-13-2004 7:49 PM Hydarnes has not replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 317 (133691)
08-13-2004 6:14 PM


BTW, Brian, I'll be replying to your Jericho topic as soon as I can. Don't expect it right away though.

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 317 (133698)
08-13-2004 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Cold Foreign Object
08-13-2004 6:14 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
You are the expert in archaeology
Do we know this for sure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-13-2004 6:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-13-2004 6:30 PM Hydarnes has replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 317 (133701)
08-13-2004 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object
08-13-2004 6:30 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
Are you speaking generally or in certified terms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-13-2004 6:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-13-2004 6:34 PM Hydarnes has replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 317 (133704)
08-13-2004 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
08-13-2004 6:31 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
That link was to corroborate my claim about the destruction and rebuilding of the city, not to support my position on the dating.
At any rate, I think there remains uncertainly as to exactly when the city was destroyed by fire--the terminology is telling. But the fact that the archaeological evidence for the destruction tallies with the biblical record is rather compelling.
This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-13-2004 05:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 08-13-2004 6:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-13-2004 7:19 PM Hydarnes has replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 317 (133705)
08-13-2004 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object
08-13-2004 6:34 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
Experience with Brian.
We have different worldviews but so what.
Brian is proven.
We both admit our bias and say our bias is based on the evidence. This renders any challenge of bias irrelevant.
Once again, glad to see you Hydarnes.
Gotcha.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-13-2004 6:34 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-13-2004 6:40 PM Hydarnes has replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 317 (133729)
08-13-2004 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
08-13-2004 7:19 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
I'm not sure how the mid 1200rds date tallies with the Bible,
It doesn't. And I would like to know exactly what methodology is being used to date the burning of the city with that period.
quote:
but I personally think there is a better chance of supporting an Exodus date around 1200 than one in the 1500s.
Not only would it not afford enough time for all of the Jewish events leading up to the time of David to occur, but it doesn't match the biblical dating methods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-13-2004 7:19 PM jar has not replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 317 (133735)
08-13-2004 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Cold Foreign Object
08-13-2004 6:40 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
Actually, there is considerable evidence that suggests an Asiatic presence in Egypt. The reason why it is difficult to prove that much of this was Hebrew is due to the fact that Israelites would not have been referred to as such. They would have been referred to as either Asiatics or Apiru, and I’m sure in many cases slaves.
Nevertheless, there have been remains uncovered by the Austrian Manfred Bietek at Tel el Daba (near Qantir) which betray a seemingly Israelite origin.
This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-13-2004 07:20 PM
This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-13-2004 07:24 PM
This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-15-2004 08:10 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-13-2004 6:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 08-13-2004 8:27 PM Hydarnes has replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 317 (133737)
08-13-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by PaulK
08-13-2004 8:04 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
If it occured around c1400bc, then it would also correspond with the destruction of Jericho.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 08-13-2004 8:04 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Brian, posted 08-14-2004 4:16 AM Hydarnes has replied
 Message 58 by PaulK, posted 08-14-2004 5:35 AM Hydarnes has not replied

Hydarnes
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 317 (133770)
08-14-2004 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
08-13-2004 8:27 PM


Re: Destruction of Hazor
The reason this identification has been proposed by some is because of the fact that a ruins at Tell El Daba known as "Area F" not only exudes clearly asiatic features, but the architecture seems to resemble later Hebrew building design. As for direct evidence for this, I'm afraid I do not have it.
But a lack in archaeological evidence for an Israelite occupation during the 15th century does not automatically prove an absence of such. And it would do skeptics well to remember that the location in Egypt known as Tell el-Maskhouta (identified as the biblical succoth, and the stronghold from which Egypt would launch her campaigns into Palestine and Syria) has yielded no archaeological evidence whatsoever for signs of military buildings, barracks, forts or any other such structures during the 18th and 19th dynasties, notwithstanding the fact that Egyptian records testify to their existence.
So it's not always wise to make categorical placements solely based on perceived archaeological data, which simply cannot account for the material not yet discovered or completely erased over time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 08-13-2004 8:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by kam1953f, posted 08-14-2004 12:34 AM Hydarnes has not replied
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-14-2004 12:45 AM Hydarnes has not replied
 Message 142 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-16-2004 6:10 PM Hydarnes has not replied

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