Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9175 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: sirs
Post Volume: Total: 917,649 Year: 4,906/9,624 Month: 254/427 Week: 0/64 Day: 0/8 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Dating the Exodus
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 241 of 317 (144759)
09-25-2004 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Brian
09-25-2004 7:26 PM


Re: A Few Questions
Hi Brian:
Thanks for the answers even though Message 219 renders the reply more or less moot.
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Brian, posted 09-25-2004 7:26 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Brian, posted 09-25-2004 7:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 5045 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 242 of 317 (144761)
09-25-2004 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Cold Foreign Object
09-25-2004 7:42 PM


Re: A Few Questions
Hi WT,
I was just working through my backlog chronologically.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-25-2004 7:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-25-2004 7:54 PM Brian has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 243 of 317 (144762)
09-25-2004 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Brian
09-25-2004 7:48 PM


Re: A Few Questions
http://EvC Forum: The Exodus: 'A Dead Issue.' -->EvC Forum: The Exodus: 'A Dead Issue.'
Hey, it will take me a few days to properly digest a link of this size anyway, but what I also wanted to know is if your position has changed at all since you wrote the post ?
thanks,
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Brian, posted 09-25-2004 7:48 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 5045 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 244 of 317 (144809)
09-26-2004 9:17 AM


Exactly 64 years?
Hi WT,
I would like to reply to your post in segments so we can focus on a reasonable number of points before moving on, I hope you are in agreement with this.
There are three schools of beliefs concerning the dating of the Exodus:
High-Date Theory: c.1615 - 1550 BC
Early-Date Theory: c.1497 - 1440 BC (1453 = correct date)
Low-Date Theory: c.1290 - 1225 BC
What about Rendsburg’s 1100’s date, or the multiple exodus theories?
The chief source for knowledge about the Exodus is the Bible as it was written to communicate truth which would otherwise not be recorded and thus remain unknown.
The Bible is the ONLY source, so it has to be the chief source. But, if you are only taking the biblical accounts into consideration then all you are doing is arguing about the content of the Bible, you are not investigating the historical accuracy of the events. We need external evidence to support the biblical narratives.
Early-Date/1453 BC:
I contend that the Bible dates the Exodus at precisely 1453 BC.
Rutherford/"The Exodus and Wilderness Journey" page 621: "Solomon's 1st year was 978-977 BC and his 4th year, 975-974 BC.
This is unsupported, but I will ignore that and go with the theory for the moment.
Okay, we will go with the claim that the Exodus was precisely 1453 BCE.
Rutherford/Chapter VII, page 587: "Dr. H.R. Hall (late Head of the Department of Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum) Dr. Hall quote: "We know that Ahab was reigning over Israel in 853 BC, and any chronological theorizing as to Old Testament dates which takes no account of this fact is utterly worthless." ["The Ancient History of the Near East", page 16]
Fine, we have Omri ruling in 853, I have no problems with that, as there is external evidence to support this.
Solomon's last year was 938 BC at which time his son Rehoboam began to reign. The Kingdom was divided at this point with Jeroboam. Thus between Ahab and Jeroboam were 4 other kings and the very short reign of Zimri.
So, the time period under scrutiny is the gap between the last year of Solomon’s reign and the first year of Ahab’s.
853 BC was the 22nd year of Ahab's rule which establishes his 1st regnal year to be 874 BC.
Again, totally unsupported, but we can run with this.
Between 874 BC and 938 BC were the reigns of:
Omri -12
Elah — 2 years
Baasha 24- 1 Kings 15:33
Nadab 2 years
This easily accounts for the 64 years between Ahab and the death of Solomon.
From the benchmark dating above I will work back:
I take it you also wish to include the reign of Jeroboam here WT?
Anyway, the information in the First Book of Kings *appears* to disagree with this 64 year gap.
Jeroboam - 22 years (1 Kings 14:20).
Nadab - 2 years (1 Kings 15:25).
Baasha - 24 years (1 Kings 15:33).
Elah - 2 years (1 Kings 16:8).
Zimri - 7 days (1 Kings 16:15).
Omri - 12 years (1 Kings 16:23).
I get the time period to be 62 years and seven days, oh and plus the three days that Rehoboam asked for to consider Jeroboam’s request to lower taxes.
I get this to add up to 62 years and 10 days.
Am I overlooking something?
If I am not overlooking anything then I suggest that the biblical chronology itself falsifies the claim that the Exodus can be dated to precisely 1453.
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 3:15 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 247 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 3:53 AM Brian has replied
 Message 275 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-02-2004 8:32 PM Brian has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 245 of 317 (144977)
09-27-2004 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Brian
09-26-2004 9:17 AM


CORRECTIONS
Topic creator Brian has pointed out two glaring and embarrassing errors in Message 219.
I omitted the reign of Jeroboam and the civil war between Omri and Tibni. Below contains the corrections which have already been added to post 219.
Edit specifically adds Jeroboam content and civil war information.
Jeroboam - 22 years [1 Kings 14:20]
Nadab - 2 years [1 Kings 15:25]
Baasha - 24 years [1 Kings 15:33]
Elah - 2 years [1 Kings 16:8]
(civil war: Omri v.Tibni) - 2 years [1Kings 16:21,22](Rutherford, pages 597, 598, 599)
Omri - 12 years [1 Kings 16:23]
End Edit of 9-26-04
The above corrections now reflect the 64 years between Ahab and the death of Solomon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Brian, posted 09-26-2004 9:17 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by PaulK, posted 09-27-2004 3:41 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 246 of 317 (144978)
09-27-2004 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Cold Foreign Object
09-27-2004 3:15 AM


Re: CORRECTIONS
To correct your corrections:
According to 1 Kings 16:
Omri was first made King over Israel in the 27th year of Asa (1 Kings 16:15-16)
There was a civil war from that point until the 31st year of Asa (16:22-23). Therefore it lasted about 4 years, not 2.
Omri died in the 38th year of Asa (16:28-29) therefore the whole period from his accession to his death spanned no more than twelve years - INCLUDING the civil war
There is no room for an extra 2 years - Zimri dies in the 27th year of Asa's reign and Omri dies in the 38th. The entire period is less than 12 years. If Rutherford claims that his "2 years" should be added to that period he is contradicting the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 3:15 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 3:56 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 252 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 8:10 PM PaulK has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 247 of 317 (144979)
09-27-2004 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Brian
09-26-2004 9:17 AM


Re: Exactly 64 years?
Hi Brian:
I would like to reply to your post in segments so we can focus on a reasonable number of points before moving on, I hope you are in agreement with this.
Completely.
What about Rendsburg’s 1100’s date, or the multiple exodus theories?
I had to draw the line somewhere and the above is not relevant to this debate unless somebody wishes to defend those dates/theories.
The Bible is the ONLY source, so it has to be the chief source. But, if you are only taking the biblical accounts into consideration then all you are doing is arguing about the content of the Bible, you are not investigating the historical accuracy of the events. We need external evidence to support the biblical narratives.
This comment seems to separate the Bible out from being a historical record and casts it into immediate "on trial" status while appointing any and all other sources to be its judges and juries.
At this point I am unfolding what the Bible records the Exodus date to be using external evidence as benchmarks to check the accuracy of the chronology.
I think it is important to understand what date the Bible says the Exodus happened and how it arrives at the date.
WT writes:
Rutherford/Chapter VII, page 587: "Dr. H.R. Hall (late Head of the Department of Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum) Dr. Hall quote: "We know that Ahab was reigning over Israel in 853 BC, and any chronological theorizing as to Old Testament dates which takes no account of this fact is utterly worthless." ["The Ancient History of the Near East", page 16]
Brian responding writes:
Fine, we have Omri ruling in 853, I have no problems with that, as there is external evidence to support this.
I assume you meant Ahab and not Omri ?
Let me know.
WT writes:
853 BC was the 22nd year of Ahab's rule which establishes his 1st regnal year to be 874 BC.
Brian responding writes:
Again, totally unsupported, but we can run with this.
Until you clear up the first question (Omri or Ahab) the second issue here depends on that.
I can prove Ahab was reigning in 853 BC via external synchronisms in addition to the Dr. Hall cite.
With Ahab's reign fixed the Bible clearly accounts for the previous 64 years.
But the two blue box quotes of yours contradict and I see no need to go any further until I know for sure what you meant.
You have no problem with the first quote (Ahab's reign) but you refer to Omri, then in the next quote you label Ahab's reign "unsupported".
thanks,
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Brian, posted 09-26-2004 9:17 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Brian, posted 09-27-2004 12:13 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 248 of 317 (144981)
09-27-2004 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by PaulK
09-27-2004 3:41 AM


Re: CORRECTIONS
I appreciate your input but unless you provide source cites with your argument it is an unsupported assertion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by PaulK, posted 09-27-2004 3:41 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by PaulK, posted 09-27-2004 4:33 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 251 by PaulK, posted 09-27-2004 1:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 249 of 317 (144983)
09-27-2004 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Cold Foreign Object
09-27-2004 3:56 AM


Re: CORRECTIONS
I did provide citations. Chapter and verse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 3:56 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 5045 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 250 of 317 (145037)
09-27-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Cold Foreign Object
09-27-2004 3:53 AM


Re: Exactly 64 years?
Hi WT,
Yes I meant Ahab, my apologies for the confusion.
I will reply later today to other points.
Sorry again for the confusion.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 3:53 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 251 of 317 (145079)
09-27-2004 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Cold Foreign Object
09-27-2004 3:56 AM


Re: CORRECTIONS
Here's some more corrections for you.
1 Kings 15:25 -
quote:
25 Now Nadab the son of Jeroboam became king over Israel in the second year of Asa king of Judah...
1 Kings 16:28-29
quote:
28 So Omri slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria; and Ahab his son became king in his place.
29 Now Ahab the son of Omri became king over Israel in the thirty-eighth year of Asa king of Judah...
So the period from the beginning of Nadab's reign to the beginning of Ahab's is from the 2nd. to the 38th. year of Asa's reign - that is a period of 36-37 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 3:56 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 8:12 PM PaulK has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 252 of 317 (145170)
09-27-2004 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by PaulK
09-27-2004 3:41 AM


Re: CORRECTIONS
I agree that your present issue is valid.
Please disregard my previous late-night reply.
Omri was first made King over Israel in the 27th year of Asa (1 Kings 16:15-16)
There was a civil war from that point until the 31st year of Asa (16:22-23)
I never made any reference to any king of Judah, therefore you cannot correct that which is not there to correct.
Jeroboam 938 BC - 916 BC = 22 years.
Nadab 916 BC - 914 BC = 2 years.
Baasha 914 BC - 890 BC = 24 years.
Elah 890 BC - 888 BC = 2 years.
Zimri 888 BC = 7 day reign.
Civil War: Omri v. Tibni 888 BC - 887 BC = 2 years.
Omri 886 BC - 874 BC = 12 years.
Ahab 874 BC - 853 BC when he died in the 22nd year of his reign.
Omri was first made King over Israel in the 27th year of Asa (1 Kings 16:15-16)
1kings 16: 15,16 says Omri was made king BUT between these verses and verse 23 is the civil war between Omri and Tibni.
Verse 23:
In the thirty and first year of Asa king of Judah began Omri to reign over Israel, twelve years: six years reigned he in Tirzah.
Verse 23 confirms the fact that this is when Omri actually became king - after the civil war between him and Tibni.
The reckoning above thwarts your challenge to the 64 years between Ahab's 1st year and the death of Solomon.
Edit:
The obvious difference between the 27th of Asa and the 31st is 4 years.
The text synchronism in 1Kings is reckoned under the Masoretic System (verses 21 through 23), the 31st year of Asa's total reign being the 28th year of his sole reign (Septuagint System).
From these sources Rutherford creates the tabulation above.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-27-2004 07:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by PaulK, posted 09-27-2004 3:41 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2004 3:56 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 257 by Brian, posted 09-28-2004 3:02 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 253 of 317 (145171)
09-27-2004 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by PaulK
09-27-2004 1:36 PM


Re: CORRECTIONS
Unless you actually apply your alleged corrections to something I have argued they are meaningless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by PaulK, posted 09-27-2004 1:36 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2004 4:02 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 256 by Brian, posted 09-28-2004 2:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 254 of 317 (145304)
09-28-2004 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Cold Foreign Object
09-27-2004 8:10 PM


Re: CORRECTIONS
1) The reign of Asa provides a reference point we can match the dates against. That you did not mention it is because you provided only claims about reign lengths rather than evidence.
2) 2 Kings 16:23 must be read in the light of the other verses. Since Omri dies and Ahab becomes King in the 38th year of Asa's reign the 12 years must start with Omri's original accession in the 27th year, not with his second coronation in the 31st year.
3) Rutherford's argument is that 1 Kings 16 suddenly switches from using the date of Asa's "total reign" to Asa's "sole reign" to evade the fact that there is no room for his civil war in the chronology. However 1 Kings 15:1-10 tells us that Asa's father Abijam ruled for three years and that Asa came to the throne on Abijam's death and ruled 41 years. There is no room here to insert the additional four years Rutherford needs. He cannot even speculate that Asa was co-ruler with Abijam since the period required is longer than Abijam's entire reign.
So, since you provide no evidence for the change in dating nor for there even being two systems in the first place - and 1 Kings provides no evidence either you have "thwarted" nothing. You have only repeated assertions made by Rutherford, without evidence.
4) I note that you do not explain the basis of Rutherford's claim that the civil war at the start of Omri's reign lasted two years. Since the only reference given is 1 Kings 16 which gives a period of four years it appears that Rutherford made it up to produce the desired outcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 8:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 255 of 317 (145307)
09-28-2004 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Cold Foreign Object
09-27-2004 8:12 PM


Re: CORRECTIONS
I am sorry that you are unable to comprehend simple English.
Since you did indeed write this:
quote:
Nadab - 2 years [1 Kings 15:25]
Baasha - 24 years [1 Kings 15:33]
Elah - 2 years [1 Kings 16:8]
(civil war: Omri v.Tibni) - 2 years [1Kings 16:21,22](Rutherford, pages 597, 598, 599)
Omri - 12 years [1 Kings 16:23]

I have corrected it by providing a better estimate, which - by relying on a single reign - avoids the rounding errors introduced by adding up the year-lengths of individual reigns, as well as Rutherford's unjustified insertion of an additional two years.
Instead of 42 years the period is actually less than 37 years, according to the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-27-2004 8:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-28-2004 10:31 PM PaulK has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024