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Author
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Topic: Dating the Exodus
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Hydarnes
Inactive Member
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Message 76 of 317 (133968)
08-14-2004 11:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 69 by lfen
08-14-2004 3:52 PM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
Hydarnes, It's right there in the material you quoted. Brian's argument is simple. Using the biblical chronology the conquest has to be around 1400 but that is "100% at odds with the archaeological evidence". Brian is arguing for the 1200 date based ON the evidence which does not support the biblical chronology. Brian has not changed his position he is simple stating the contradiction between archaeological evidence and biblical account. lfen
I stand corrected. I realized that after I wrote it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by lfen, posted 08-14-2004 3:52 PM | | lfen has not replied |
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Hydarnes
Inactive Member
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Message 77 of 317 (133973)
08-14-2004 11:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by jar
08-14-2004 4:15 PM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
Actually, since the name was used throughout the region by Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugariti, from about 2000-1200BCE, to describe various landless and lawless peoples covering an area from Iran to Egypt, it is very unlikely that it refers to the Hebrews. Instead, it appears to be a generic term for landless nomads. Once again, you really have to twist the evidence to try to make it conform to the Bible in any way. And even if you accepted that interpretation, it appears that the Habiru left the Delta region sometime around 1200 and not in a major Exodus, but simply straggeling off, family by family, clan by clan over a period of hundreds of years.
Twist? It fits the 1400bc timeline perfectly, and for you venture out of your way in order to call it "twisting" is to embrace precisely the same crime. You do realize that by this allegation you are implicating the [arguably] number one expert in epigraphy?
quote:
And even if you accepted that interpretation, it appears that the Habiru left the Delta region sometime around 1200 and not in a major Exodus, but simply straggeling off, family by family, clan by clan over a period of hundreds of years.
I think your knowledge in this area is going to require extensive renovation and updating before attempting to give us an ad lib version of your 2 cents. You appear to completely forget that Akhenaten was not contemporary with 1200, and yet we have very clear historical records that place the appearance/invasion of the Habiru exactly during that period---correlating all too perfectly with a post-Exodus/Joshua invasion. You are the only one here manifesting a capacity for twisting the facts. This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-14-2004 10:21 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by jar, posted 08-14-2004 4:15 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by jar, posted 08-14-2004 11:30 PM | | Hydarnes has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 78 of 317 (133974)
08-14-2004 11:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Hydarnes
08-14-2004 11:18 PM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
You appear to completely forget that Akhenaten was not contemporary with 1200, and yet we have very clear historical records that place the appearance/invasion of the Habiru exactly during that period---correlating all too perfectly with a post-Exodus/Joshua invasion. Actually, I imagine you're talking about the Armana letters that seem to be complaining about raids by nomads and semi-nomads, shifting aliances that served as mercenaries in various local conflicts. IIRC, they are from around 1340 BCE and no where refer to anything similar to a major invasion. At the time of those letters, Palestine cities were vassals of Egypt.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Hydarnes, posted 08-14-2004 11:18 PM | | Hydarnes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:06 AM | | jar has replied |
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Hydarnes
Inactive Member
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Message 79 of 317 (133981)
08-15-2004 12:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by jar
08-14-2004 11:30 PM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
Actually, I imagine you're talking about the Armana letters that seem to be complaining about raids by nomads and semi-nomads, shifting aliances that served as mercenaries in various local conflicts.
It's amusing how you infuse the letters with your own arbitrary conjectures concerning the circumstances surrounding the emergence of the Habiru, and yet you persist in avoiding the fact that it fits the biblical account by either making patently fallacious statements or entirely omitting salient points altogether in order to perpetuate your own pretenses concerning its "incongruity" in support of the biblical record.
quote:
they are from around 1340 BCE and no where refer to anything similar to a major invasion.
Baloney. An excerpt from a letter written by Abdu-Heba of Jerusalme reads thus: "So certain as the king, my Lord, lives, when the commissioners come, I will say: Lost are the territories of the king. Do you not hear to me? All the rulers are lost; the king, my Lord, does not have a single ruler left. May the king direct his attention to the archers, and may the king, my Lord,send troops of archers, the king has no more lands. The Hapiru sack the territories of the king. If there are archers (here) this year, all the territories of the king will remain (intact); but if there are no archers, the territories of the king, my Lord, will be lost! To the king, my Lord thus writes Abdu-Heba, your servant. He conveys eloquent words to the king, my Lord. All the territories of the king, my Lord, are lost." This letter conveys distinct desperation and anxiety about a disastrous future for Palestine, this was no minor matter facing Canaan. This is further illustrated by the fact that Egypt's entire asiatic empire collapsed. Contemporaneously, Mitanni was sacked by the Hitties, and its king Tushratta was murdered, Byblos was destroyed as well and its king overthrown. Numerous historical sources will corroborate these events.
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At the time of those letters, Palestine cities were vassals of Egypt.
But were quickly lost under Akhenaten's reign. So in all essence, what have you really offered us? A a pile of empty assertions in lieu of the actual facts. Please don't respond to this unless you have something of substance to say. I resent a reply that is made simply for the purpose of not feeling refuted. This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-14-2004 11:09 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by jar, posted 08-14-2004 11:30 PM | | jar has replied |
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: 11-21-2003
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Message 80 of 317 (133982)
08-15-2004 12:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Hydarnes
08-15-2004 12:06 AM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
Jar will assert you to death.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:06 AM | | Hydarnes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 82 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:18 AM | | Cold Foreign Object has not replied |
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Cold Foreign Object
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: 11-21-2003
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Message 81 of 317 (133984)
08-15-2004 12:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Hydarnes
08-15-2004 12:06 AM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
Hi Hydarnes: Are you familiar with Profesor Cyrus Gordon and his slam dunk evidence proving the high culture of Greece originating from Hebrew civilization ? Not to mention his identification of the Hyksos to be Hebrews and not some ambiguous "asiatics" who "somehow" came to power in Egypt ? This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-14-2004 11:15 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:06 AM | | Hydarnes has replied |
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Hydarnes
Inactive Member
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
I guess its a palpable, [albeit agonizing] truth that we've all come to accept.  This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-14-2004 11:49 PM
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Hydarnes
Inactive Member
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
I'm unfamiliar. Any suggestions as to how I can access that material? I've never heard of the "Greek culture originating from the Hebrew Civilization" proposition before. Sounds intriguing. In your opinion, does he substantiate his conclusions with convincing data?
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
Hey WT, have you switched side?
The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 85 of 317 (133988)
08-15-2004 12:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Hydarnes
08-15-2004 12:06 AM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
That looks like you're quote mining Letter EA 286, IIRC. Actually, he is listing what he imagines are rumors that may have reached the Pharoah implying that he might have revolted. Here it is in it's intirety.
To the king, my Lord, thus speaks Abdu-Heba, your servant. At the feet of the king, my Lord, seven times and seven times I prostrate myself. What have I done to the king, my Lord? They blame me before the king, my Lord, saying: " Abdu-Heba has rebelled against the king, my Lord ". I am here, as far as I am concerned, it was not my father, nor my mother, who put to me in this position; the arm of the powerful king lead me to the house of my father! Why would I commit a transgression against the king, my Lord. While the king, my Lord, lives, I will say to the commissioner of the king, my Lord: " Why do you favour the Hapiru and are opposed to the rulers? " And thus I am accused before the king, my Lord. Because it is said: " Lost are the territories of the king, my Lord ". Thus am I calumniated before the king, my Lord! But may the king, my Lord know, that, when the king sent a garrison, Yanhamu [1] seized everything, and... the land of Egypt... Oh king, my Lord, there are no garrison troops here! (Therefore), the king takes care of his land! May the king take care of his land! ! All the territories of the king have rebelled; Ilimilku caused the loss of all the territories of the king. May the king take care of his land! I repeat: Allow me to enter the presence of the king, my Lord, and let me look into both eyes of the king, my Lord. But the hostility against me is strong, and I cannot enter the presence of the king, my Lord. May the king send garrison troops, in order that I may enter and look into the eyes of the king, my Lord. So certain as the king, my Lord, lives, when the commissioners come, I will say: Lost are the territories of the king. Do you not hear to me? All the rulers are lost; the king, my Lord, does not have a single ruler left. May the king direct his attention to the archers, and may the king, my Lord,send troops of archers, the king has no more lands. The Hapiru sack the territories of the king. If there are archers (here) this year, all the territories of the king will remain (intact); but if there are no archers, the territories of the king, my Lord, will be lost! To the king, my Lord thus writes Abdu-Heba, your servant. He conveys eloquent words to the king, my Lord. All the territories of the king, my Lord, are lost. I see nothing in this that even hints of an invasion but as I said, is far more a story of intrigue and revolt. In addition, it does not imply that the Hapiru are a group that is hired by, or at least condoned by the Pharoah.
While the king, my Lord, lives, I will say to the commissioner of the king, my Lord: " Why do you favour the Hapiru and are opposed to the rulers? " Sorry, but there is no support there for an organized invasion as opposed to simple city to city conflict and revolt.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:06 AM | | Hydarnes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:45 AM | | jar has replied |
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Cold Foreign Object
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: 11-21-2003
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Message 86 of 317 (133991)
08-15-2004 12:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Hydarnes
08-15-2004 12:19 AM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
Proven data x 10,000 ! I'll get back to you.
Anyone wanting to claim the Hyksos are "asiatics" I urge you to stop the stalling and evidence your claims.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:19 AM | | Hydarnes has not replied |
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Hydarnes
Inactive Member
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Message 87 of 317 (133992)
08-15-2004 12:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 85 by jar
08-15-2004 12:22 AM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
Actually, he is listing what he imagines are rumors that may have reached the Pharoah implying that he might have revolted. Here it is in it's intirety.
Part of the letter was dedicated to vindicating his character from accusations, there is no doubt about that. This doesn't negate the ensuing pleas that confirm what I have established.
quote:
I see nothing in this that even hints of an invasion but as I said, is far more a story of intrigue and revolt.
Then I'm afraid you have an awfully selective vision. This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-14-2004 11:45 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 12:22 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 12:57 AM | | Hydarnes has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 88 of 317 (133994)
08-15-2004 12:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Hydarnes
08-15-2004 12:45 AM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
No, it shows a far different picture than on of invasion. In fact, there is not even a hint of invasion. There is also the fact that the term Habiru is not a designation of a particular people but rather a generic term similar to brgand or highway robber. If you look at EA 288 you will find the term used in just that manor, as a disparaging term and not of a particular people.
quote:
EA 288 Speak to the king, my lord, my sun, Thue Abdi-hepa, your servant. At the two feet of the king, my lord, seven tmes and seven times I fall. (5)Look! The king, my lord, has established his name from the rising of the sun to the seting of the sun. They have committed villany against me. Look! I am not a governor (10) or an officer of the king my lord. Indeed! I am a friend of the king, my lord, and a bearer of royal tribute. It was not my father nor my mother, but the strong arm of the king that (15) established me in the house of my father. [the text is broken] ....reached me.... I gave ten servants to him. Shuta, the royal commissioner of the king came (20) to me. I gave 21 young women, and 80 prisoners to Shuta as a gift to the king, my lord. Let the king take thought for his land; the land of the king is plundered. (25) All of it has been seized from me. There is hostility against me, as far as the land of Sherri, as far as Gint-kirmil, are all at peace, that is, for the Hazianuti, But there is hostility against me. I have become like the Habiru. (30)But I cannot see the two eyes of the king, my Lord. Because of the hostility that is against me, I have become like a ship in the midst of the sea. The strong arm of he king (35)can conquer Nahrima and Kapsi, but now the Habiru are taking the lands of the king. There is not one city-state ruler (40)belonging to the king, my lord. All of them are lost. Look! Turbazu was killed in the gate of the city of Zilu, but the king [did nothing]. Look! Zimrida of Lachish was killed by servants who acted with the Habiru. (45)Yaptih-Adda was slain in the gate of Sillu.... Should not the king inquire of them? So let the king take care of his land, and let the king take care of (50)the garrison for the land of tribute. Because if there is no garrison this year, all of the lands of the king, my lord, will be lost. Do not let them say to the king, my lord (55)that the land of the king, my lord, is lost, or that every one of the city-state rulers are lost. If there is no garrison this year, let the king send a governor, and let him take me (60)to you with my brothers. We are willing to die with the king, our lord. To the scribe of the king my lord, Abdi-Hepa, your servant says: At your two feet I have fallen. Send eloquent words to the king. I am your servant and your son.
It requires a fertile imagination to see the term Habiru as a specific people or as the Hebrew. It is a discription of a time of instability, but again, no sign of invasion. It is a time of small internal revolts that extended over many years and was not an organized military invasion. This is carried through in EA 280.
quote:
EA 280 To the king, my Lord, My God, My Sun, Thus says Shuwardata Your servant, the dust of your feet. At the foot of the king, my master, My God and My Sun Seven times and seven times I fall. The King, my lord sent me (10)To engage Keilah in battle. I was fighting, (But) now there is peace with me; My city has been saved for me. Why did Abdi-Hepa send a message To the people of Keilah (saying), "Take silver and (20)come here behind me?" Now the king, my lord, should know that Abdi-Hepa has taken my city from me. Secondly, let the king my Lord, investigate. If I have taken a man, an ox, or as much as one donkey from him, then he is justified. (30) Further, Labaya, who took our cities is dead. And now, Abdi-Hepa has become a second Labaya, for he took our cities. Now let the king think about his servant on account of this deed. And he will not do anything until the king sends word to his servant.
Again, no sign of a massive organized invasion but rather the termoild of city revolts and intrigue between various vassals.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 12:45 AM | | Hydarnes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 1:18 AM | | jar has replied |
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Hydarnes
Inactive Member
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Message 89 of 317 (133996)
08-15-2004 1:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 88 by jar
08-15-2004 12:57 AM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
quote:
No, it shows a far different picture than on of invasion. In fact, there is not even a hint of invasion.
And yet again, this is a phenomenon of events strictly confined to your own imagination. And the naked fact that you go as far as even denying so much as a "hint of invasion" renders all the more unmerited your claim to any legitimacy in this discussion.
quote:
It requires a fertile imagination to see the term Habiru as a specific people or as the Hebrew.
Nobody is proposing that "Habiru" IS referring to a specific people (rather stateless individuals who weren't associated with any urban center), but it IS a term that WOULD have been used vis-a-vis the Israelites. You again fail to even acknowledge that the expert in epigraphy goes as far as suggesting that it is an origin for the term Hebrew, something that I'm not even categorically claiming. Moreover, the fact that it fits with such consonance into the timeline is further reason to make a connection. Your straw man hasn't deceived anyone.
quote:
Again, no sign of a massive organized invasion but rather the termoild of city revolts and intrigue between various vassals.
There is no need to quote amarna letters that we are acquainted with already and do nothing to prove your point. Nobody has insinuated that there wasn't revolts and intrigue happening in the region at the time. Jar, if I were you I'd give it up already before making a bigger blunder of yourself than you've already have. This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-15-2004 12:32 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 12:57 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 90 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 1:29 AM | | Hydarnes has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 90 of 317 (133997)
08-15-2004 1:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 89 by Hydarnes
08-15-2004 1:18 AM
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Re: Destruction of Hazor
Please show where in EA 280, 286 or 288 an invasion is shown? Please explain how EA 280 is a letter to the Pharoah accusing Abdu-Heba of exactly the same type behaviour that Abdu-Heba blames on others? Please show where Habiru is used as a designation of a particular people?
You again fail to consider the expert in epigraphy goes as far as suggesting that it is an origin for the term Hebrew, something that I'm not even categorically claiming. Again, an unspecified expert ploy. This is so tenuous that even you wont make such a claim. There simply is no evidence that Habiru is a designation of the Hebrews. Finally, the estiamtes I've seen for dating the Jerusalem letters place them in the mid 1300s, too late for the 1447 Exodus and too early for the more reasonable mid 1200s Exodus.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by Hydarnes, posted 08-15-2004 1:18 AM | | Hydarnes has replied |
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