Egyptology Sets Up A Straw Man

Ray Martinez:Where does any Near East kingdom record defeats ?Only the Bible records the defeats of its subject the Israelites = proof supporting Divine control of content.Where does ANY Near East kingdom record a victory during the Biblically determined reign of David ? [1018 to 978 BC].None exist because the Bible is correct in stating that David ruled the Near East.The lack of a claimed victory during David's reign corroborates the Scriptural record of David's reign and territory.Where is any Near East nation victory recorded which contradicts a Biblically determined date of a victory for Israel ?EGYPTOLOGY SETS UP A STRAW MAN:Egyptology: Where is any Egyptian record testifying to the Plagues or Exodus ?Question only asked because none exist.Question assumes such evidenciary text or inscription would exist IF the Biblical account were true.Where does ANY Near East nation record a defeat ?They don't, unless in the context of a victory being cited and even then it is rare and obviously compared to the Scriptural records defeats are numerically non-existent.Why would Egypt record the greatest defeat of all time ?Who would need to record for fear of not remembering that which destroyed their nation ?They didn't because there is no basis for any Near East nation ever recording defeats.Therefore, Egyptology has set up a straw man (Egyptian records SHOULD exist if the Exodus account is true), in order to falsify the Biblical account of the Plagues and Exodus based on a known false assumption that Near East nations record defeats.Because Near East nations do not record defeats - the lack of ANY Egyptian records or texts or inscriptions to this end strongly confirms the Exodus account detailing the greatest defeat ever suffered by a Near East nation. shortened url to fix page width - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 05-16-2005 10:06 PMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-16-2005 08:18 PMPromoted from PNT by AdminNosyThis message has been edited by AdminNosy, 05-17-2005 07:02 PM

The lack of evidence for one thing does not evidence another. Just because they didn't keep records of their defeats (I am assuming you are correct) doesn't mean that the lack of records means they were defeated.That is like saying "Bob usually doesn't take notes if he reads his science book twice or if the chapter is easy. Well, looks like Bob took notes, he must not have read it twice." It is nothing more than an unsupported assumption that favors your argument.

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If ten thousand persons with Ph.D.'s say porn does not harm kids this means they are secret pedophiles and brazen liars.
-Willowtree

Hello Willowtree. Back again I see.

According to the straw man set up by Egyptology it does.Persons familiar with the status of this age-old debate know:The "refutation" of the claims of the book of Exodus comes via the question, "Where in Egyptian texts are the Plagues/Exodus ?"The question begs the answer.The question ASSUMES if the events were true there would be Egyptian records.Persons who ask "the question" KNOW there are no Egyptian records of the said events.Persons who ask "the question" set up a straw man - that which doesn't exist in order to assert the non-existence supports the Exodus narrative as myth.Persons who ask "the question" know that no Near East nation records any defeats.Persons who ask "the question" ask the question because the question assumes that which does not happen (defeats being recorded) would happen.Where are defeats recorded so we can see a pattern ?Where does Egypt record ANY defeats ?I can show you "one" but I won't. Egyptologists and their disciples say the lack of Egyptian records of the Plagues/Exodus evidence against the Bible.You cannot have it both ways.The Bible says Egypt was "destroyed".Egypt is not mentioned - not even once through-out the Judges interval, all the way to Shishak.......well that is another issue. Randy:Have you bought the rhetoric of Holmes ?IIRC you are a teenager ?A teenager supporting porn......But then again the quote and your use of it is poker.Ray/Willowtree.

Well, I am willing to agree that lack of records by the Egyptians is not evidence against the Plagues/Exodus, but I see no reason why the lack of records would be evidence supporting the Plagues/Exodus.In other words, I agree (to a degree) that the argument that "No records=no Plagues/Exodus." is flawed, but there is still no evidence supporting the Plagues/Exodus.As for the Sig, I use it to remind myself and others not to exaggerate. The fact that it is about porn is just a side issue. As for my age and opinion on porn itself. I am 17 and pro-porn.

1) WHen you say that there are no inscriptions can you explain how many such inscriptions are known for the relevant area and for what periods.
A summary with valid sources will do.2) Can you eplain why there no Israelite inscriptions confirming Israelite victories ?3) It is not unknown for defeats to be recorded and spun as victories. (For instance the Assyrian accounts of their attack on Judah under Hezekaiah differ considerably from the Biblical account).4) The request for records from Egypt is not a strawman. The enslavement of the Israelites for instance is not a defeat. Why should that not be recorded ? By the usual translations of Exodus the Delta region of Egypt should be largely depopulated by the removal of a large majority of the people living there. So why is there no archaeological evidence for the Exodus ?

Is this really true? Where did you learn about this? Do you mean that there is a motive behind it all?

Hi Ray,I have a few questions, as you probably expected, but before I go any further, can you just tell me if I am on the right track or not?You argue that Egyptologists know that Egyptians have a tradition of not recording defeats.These same Egyptologists would thus know that the defeat of Egypt at the Sea of Reeds would not be recorded.They then go on to say that there was no Exodus because there are no records of an Egyptian defeat at the Sea of Reeds?I think that's pretty much what you are saying.If it is then can you answer the following questions please?1. Can you give me the name of an Egyptologist and a reference to where that Egyptologist rejects the authenticity of the exouds based solely on the lack of a written record of defeat?2. Can you explain why many Christian archaeologists (e.g. William Albright, George Wright, Joseph Calloway) claim that the Exodus did not happen as portrayed in the Hebrew Bible?Two questions are fine for now.Once you can give me an Egyptologist and a reference to where I can find such a claim I will check out that source and get back to you.Have a nice day.Brian.

Brian,I am amazed that you are tackling this! You should change your nick to Sisyphus!I guess I'll just sit back and watch you push this boulder almost to the top only to have Ray start it all over again at the bottom. I don't know whether to admire you or be concerned for you!lfen

If the Exodus as described in the Bible actually happened, what can we say about it?Does the idea that it was simply not recorded carry any weight and deserve more than a cursory examination?What would have happened if Pharaoh's army had been wiped out?There are several external things we could look for:

• there would be period of internal struggle while the ascension is fought over.
• there would be a need to replace all of the lost troops and materials.
• there would be a power vacuum and we'd see those territories and city-states that were only lightly held breaking free.
• the other world powers would try to take advantage of the situation of a decimated Egypt.
  

Any and all of these would have left records external to and independant of whether or not Egypt recorded any defeats.Is there any evidence of any of those things happening?No!At the time of the Biblical Exdodus myth Egypt is and remains the baddest boy on the block. There are no unaccounted for signs of troop recruitment, chariot building, horse buying or trading, weapons making, new training facilities or tactics. The Nubians don't march up from the South and there is no incursion from the North. The vassal states in Palestine continue their normal discourse and correspondence and there is no sign of major changes in allegence or sovereignty.So there is much evidence that nothing like the Biblical defeat described in the Exodus myth ever happened and the idea that it was simply kept a secret can be dismissed.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Probably the latter!!

Your post is spot on.No one discards the Exodus based on the nonrecording of a defeat.The thing is about a defeat such as the Bible claims actually does leave a record, it doesn't have to be a written one.This suggestion also presupposes that Egyptologists are idiots and that the people who review their work before publication are idiots.But, I am extremely interested to see which Egyptologists reject the Exodus based SOLELY on the lack of a recorded defeat.If WT does produce a few Egyptologists who do claim what he says they do, then these Egyptologists HAVE set up a strawman. But until we get references we cannot conclude anything regarding WT's claim.Brian.This message has been edited by Brian, 05-18-2005 02:29 PM

this was a bit of a willowtree post. i'd missed it the first time around, back in october. the thread is closed, otherwise i would have posted there, but i'll change the topic slightly to match this thread.but where does the bible record jehu's defeat? the bible sure does. lots of times. but ONLY when it fits the message they are trying to deliver. in the case of jehu, even though he permits the sin of jeroboam (having another temple), the author of kings likes him. he kicks the foreigners out, dissolves alliances, and trashes idols. and because of the first two, he LOSES to the assyrian invaders. but that would be totally contradictory to the point of kings. they want you to believe that outside influence is bad, and that god is on your side if you remain pure and don't allow idolatry. and his defeat would have proved the contrary.so they left it out. i don't think i would call it the greatest defeat of all time. and as for egyptians recording defeat, sometimes they did. for instance, they recorded that they were ruled by an outside (semitic) people for nearly 400 years. but that may have only been because in the end, they kicked them out rather triumphantly.but you're basically right. egyptians are not knows for their exceptional record keeping practices. while they WROTE good records, many things tended to get editted out -- like king tut. doesn't follow: false dichotomy.just because there are no records of it doesn't mean it happened. they have no records of flying pink elephants that sang show tunes either.

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אָרַח

What I said, as you know, or anyone for that matter, if they were to scroll back and read the OP, was: there are no Egyptian texts, or inscriptions/bas reliefs, or records of ANY defeats in ANY ancient Near East era. If the latter was unclear it is clear now.Also, I have no interest in your research project, which appears to be a sidetrack.Can you produce ONE inscription from ANY Near East nation recording a defeat ?I can show "one" Egyptian, (like I mentioned in the OP) but I will not do your job for you. Because the Torah strictly forbid graven images ?But you are evading the clear indictment of the OP:Except for Israel, Near East nations do not record defeats.The question asking for Egyptian corroboration of Exodus narratives assumes Egyptians record defeats - WHERE ?Of course I am assuming the Plagues/Red Sea is the greatest defeat of all time (if true), but implacable opponents can assert contrary in defiance of all logic anyhow.I will get back to your Question #4 ASAP.RM

I am not proposing a side project I am proposing that you properly set your claims in context. We cannot know if an absence of inscriptions is significant unless we know how common the inscriptions are. Establishing that they are so common that the absence is significant is your job.Also the ban on graven images would not cover - for instance - stele engraved with text. Therefore the absence of inscrptions marking Israelite victories remains unexplained.Also I must add that it is NOT my job to make the arguments you wish me to make. I will point to the evidence that we do have - such as the lack of any mention of the Israelites in the Amarna Letters - which evidence that the Exodus did not occurr in the 15th Century BC as you claimed in an earlier thread. I will repeat that the lack of any archaeological evidence of massive depopulation of the Delta region is evidence that it is not true that millions of people left there to move to Canaan at any point where the Exodus might be thought to have happened.