Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 88 (8890 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 02-17-2019 5:28 PM
161 online now:
AZPaul3, Coragyps, JonF, kjsimons, Meddle, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), RAZD, Theodoric (9 members, 152 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 847,608 Year: 2,645/19,786 Month: 727/1,918 Week: 14/301 Day: 14/38 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
234Next
Author Topic:   Eye of the needle
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 47 (23995)
11-24-2002 12:07 AM


Famous bible qoute

"Its easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than to get a rich man into heaven".

Ancient greek saying

"Its easier to get a rope through the eye of a needle than to get a rich man into heaven".

The ancient greek word for rope is camolis. When the christians stole this saying they did'nt translate properly.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by joz, posted 11-24-2002 12:11 AM metatron has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Zhimbo, posted 11-24-2002 4:00 PM metatron has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-27-2002 1:46 AM metatron has not yet responded
 Message 43 by daedelus901, posted 02-14-2006 8:40 PM metatron has not yet responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 47 (23996)
11-24-2002 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by metatron
11-24-2002 12:07 AM


LMFAO
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by metatron, posted 11-24-2002 12:07 AM metatron has not yet responded

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4055 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 3 of 47 (24086)
11-24-2002 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by metatron
11-24-2002 12:07 AM


Is the Aramaic (I believe that's the right language for what we're tlaking about here) word for camel similar to "camolis"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by metatron, posted 11-24-2002 12:07 AM metatron has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-24-2002 4:33 PM Zhimbo has not yet responded
 Message 11 by judge, posted 11-25-2002 6:46 AM Zhimbo has responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 47 (24092)
11-24-2002 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Zhimbo
11-24-2002 4:00 PM


Interesting. So you are positive it was originally greek? This comes before my favorite verse. Don't see why it's considered stolen or faultily translated, even if the greeks did use it first maybe Jesus was just using this analogy with his own twist, just to use something farmiliar in order to clearly state a point. just a thought

------------------
saved by grace


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Zhimbo, posted 11-24-2002 4:00 PM Zhimbo has not yet responded

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 47 (24159)
11-25-2002 3:51 AM


Actually, the 'eye of a needle' refers to a small area a few feet from the main gate entrance to Jerusalem. During the day the main gate is open, however at night the gate is closed, and travellers can only get in through the 'eye of a needle'. This 'eye of a needle' is very small, and is quite difficult to get through, only as tall as a horse/mule, and just wide enough for a horse/mule to get through. For a person to get through any man wanting to enter would have to duck and crawl through.
Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-25-2002 4:12 AM blitz77 has not yet responded

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 47 (24164)
11-25-2002 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by blitz77
11-25-2002 3:51 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
Actually, the 'eye of a needle' refers to a small area a few feet from the main gate entrance to Jerusalem. During the day the main gate is open, however at night the gate is closed, and travellers can only get in through the 'eye of a needle'. This 'eye of a needle' is very small, and is quite difficult to get through, only as tall as a horse/mule, and just wide enough for a horse/mule to get through. For a person to get through any man wanting to enter would have to duck and crawl through.

Thats what I heard as well.

------------------
It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains
fall out. - Bertrand Russell


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by blitz77, posted 11-25-2002 3:51 AM blitz77 has not yet responded

  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 47 (24166)
11-25-2002 5:36 AM


Unfortunately, it is the religious equivalent of an urban myth. There was no such name for the gate in Jesus' day. Jesus' point was simple hyperbole.

http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/18_24-34.htm mentions this myth with references.

I've heard the rope/camel point before - since the gospels were written in Greek, Greek is the relevant language. I have never heard that it was a pre-existing Greek saying - any support for this assertion, Metatron?


Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by John, posted 11-25-2002 9:39 AM Karl has not yet responded

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 47 (24172)
11-25-2002 6:02 AM


Well, looking it up on Google, it seems that the myth was wrong, and that it was translated wrongly.
http://www.angelfire.com/wy/Franklin4YAHWEH/camelthroughneedle.html

quote:
The original Greek tells not of a camel, but a rope (kamilos ). When it was translated into Latin, kamilos was confused with kamelos ( camel).

I tried looking for an ancient Greek saying about this, and it seems that the only Greek saying that fits the bill comes from Jesus.

quote:
Luke clears this up, by carfully useing the Greek word for a surgeon's needle, nullifing this interpretation.
YAHshua selected the eye of the needle because it was the smallest opening. The rope because it was an impossible situation.

The correct translation is

quote:
"... Again I tell you, it is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Yahweh." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be redeemed?" YAHshua looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with Yahweh all things a possible."

Thanks Karl for correcting me

[This message has been edited by blitz77, 11-25-2002]


  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 47 (24176)
11-25-2002 6:18 AM


Going to have to correct you again, Blitz (sorry!)

The Greek does say Kamelon (accusative of Kamelos) (look it up at http://www.greekbible.com). If there was a copying error, it was before the texts we now possess. The site you found is a bit kooky - rather obsessed with his false etymology of names for God and Jesus in English translations. He falsly claims that Jehovah = Iovis (genitive case of Iuppiter), Jesus = Ge-Zeus, Adonai = Adonis, and other such linguistic nonsense.

But I digress.

Be critical where you get info from. There is a lot of fruitcake on the web, and masses of religious fruitcake.


Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by blitz77, posted 11-25-2002 6:32 AM Karl has not yet responded

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 47 (24177)
11-25-2002 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Karl
11-25-2002 6:18 AM


quote:
Going to have to correct you again, Blitz (sorry!)

No problem. A rope or camel can't pass through the eye of a needle, so it doesn't make too much of a difference which it is


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Karl, posted 11-25-2002 6:18 AM Karl has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Peter, posted 11-25-2002 7:37 AM blitz77 has not yet responded

  
judge
Member (Idle past 4487 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 11 of 47 (24178)
11-25-2002 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Zhimbo
11-24-2002 4:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Zhimbo:
Is the Aramaic (I believe that's the right language for what we're tlaking about here) word for camel similar to "camolis"?

Hi all! :-)

I believe the word is originally aramaic, that being the Aramaic wrod "gamla", which could mean Camel, beam or large rope.
The semetic root word being GML meaning 1)To ripen or 2)To bestow upon.

The meaning as a rope can be confirmed in the work of 10th century aramaic lexiconographer Mar Bahlul who wrote an aramaic dictionary and gives the meaning a "a large rope used to bind ships".
This meaning is confirmed also in the writings of george lamsa..
In his books, George M. Lamsa lists the Aramaic word GMLA as a word
"with many meanings" and states that it can mean "Large rope; Camel; Beam"
(The New Testament according to the Eastern Text; George M. Lamsa; 1940 ;
p. xxiv). Elsewhere Lamsa writes;

The Aramaic word GAMLA is the same word for "camel" and
"a large rope". Matt. 19:24 should read, "It is easier
for a rope to go through a needle's eye, etc."
(The Four

And in ...
TEACH YOURSELF ARAMAIC
By Dr. Mar Aprem;
Mar Narsai Press
Trichur, Kerala, India; 1981; p. 95

THE NEW COVENANT PESHITTA ARAMAIC TEXT WITH A HEBREW TRANSLATION
The Bible Society;
Jerusalem; 1986 p.356

The hebrew word GMLH seems also derived form the aramaic..

GMLH Post Biblical Hebrew; gangway, gangboard. Palestinian Aramaic GMLA; of uncertain origin.
- A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew
Language for Readers of English;
By Rabbi Ernest David Klein Ph.D.; 1987; p.103

The arabic word JAMEL also means to bear a burden.

On the greek loan word Khamelos.....
"Gk. kamelos (whence L. camelus), is a loan word from
Heb.-Phon. GML"
- A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew
Language for Readers of English;
By Rabbi Ernest David Klein Ph.D.; 1987; p.103

Now according to the MANUAL GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT 3rd Ed. by
G. Abbott-Smith; 1939; p. 229; there is an alternate spelling for Greek
KAMHLOS which is KAMILOS. A GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
AND OTHER EARLY CHRISTIAN LITERATURE; by Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich; 1957; p.
402; states that KAMILOS can mean "rope."

Hope this is a help...:-)

[This message has been edited by judge, 11-25-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Zhimbo, posted 11-24-2002 4:00 PM Zhimbo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Zhimbo, posted 11-25-2002 12:04 PM judge has not yet responded
 Message 42 by JonathanTheology, posted 01-12-2004 3:42 AM judge has not yet responded

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1967 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 12 of 47 (24185)
11-25-2002 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by blitz77
11-25-2002 6:32 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
quote:
Going to have to correct you again, Blitz (sorry!)

No problem. A rope or camel can't pass through the eye of a needle, so it doesn't make too much of a difference which it is


It does if you want to claim biblical inerrancy.

If one word can be mistranslated, then why not others ... and
if the bible is the word of God and all translators are
touched by him to reveal the true word of God, how can it even
happen?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by blitz77, posted 11-25-2002 6:32 AM blitz77 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by doctrbill, posted 11-28-2002 8:56 PM Peter has not yet responded
 Message 22 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-04-2002 7:07 PM Peter has responded

    
John
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 47 (24206)
11-25-2002 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Karl
11-25-2002 5:36 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
I've heard the rope/camel point before - since the gospels were written in Greek, Greek is the relevant language.

Just a small note: though the gospels do appear to have been written in greek-- there is a some debate that aramaic is the original language, which I have been looking into lately-- aramaic was certainly a major language of the region at the time, so mixing and matching a bit would be the human thing to do.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Karl, posted 11-25-2002 5:36 AM Karl has not yet responded

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4055 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 14 of 47 (24223)
11-25-2002 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by judge
11-25-2002 6:46 AM


"Hope this is a help...:-)"

Right on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by judge, posted 11-25-2002 6:46 AM judge has not yet responded

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 47 (24543)
11-27-2002 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by metatron
11-24-2002 12:07 AM


Reminds me of a Qur'anic verse, also using the camel/eye of needle phrase:

QS Al-A'raaf (7):40
Inna allatheena kaththaboo bi-ayatina waistakbaroo AAanha la tufattahu lahum abwabu alssama-i wala yadkhuloona aljannata hatta yalija aljamalu fee sammi alkhiyati wakathalika najzee almujrimeena

YusufAli: To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin.

[This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 11-27-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by metatron, posted 11-24-2002 12:07 AM metatron has not yet responded

  
1
234Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019