Interesting. So you are positive it was originally greek? This comes before my favorite verse. Don't see why it's considered stolen or faultily translated, even if the greeks did use it first maybe Jesus was just using this analogy with his own twist, just to use something farmiliar in order to clearly state a point. just a thought
Actually, the 'eye of a needle' refers to a small area a few feet from the main gate entrance to Jerusalem. During the day the main gate is open, however at night the gate is closed, and travellers can only get in through the 'eye of a needle'. This 'eye of a needle' is very small, and is quite difficult to get through, only as tall as a horse/mule, and just wide enough for a horse/mule to get through. For a person to get through any man wanting to enter would have to duck and crawl through.
quote:Originally posted by blitz77: Actually, the 'eye of a needle' refers to a small area a few feet from the main gate entrance to Jerusalem. During the day the main gate is open, however at night the gate is closed, and travellers can only get in through the 'eye of a needle'. This 'eye of a needle' is very small, and is quite difficult to get through, only as tall as a horse/mule, and just wide enough for a horse/mule to get through. For a person to get through any man wanting to enter would have to duck and crawl through.
Thats what I heard as well.
------------------ It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. - Bertrand Russell
I've heard the rope/camel point before - since the gospels were written in Greek, Greek is the relevant language. I have never heard that it was a pre-existing Greek saying - any support for this assertion, Metatron?
quote:The original Greek tells not of a camel, but a rope (kamilos ). When it was translated into Latin, kamilos was confused with kamelos ( camel).
I tried looking for an ancient Greek saying about this, and it seems that the only Greek saying that fits the bill comes from Jesus.
quote:Luke clears this up, by carfully useing the Greek word for a surgeon's needle, nullifing this interpretation. YAHshua selected the eye of the needle because it was the smallest opening. The rope because it was an impossible situation.
The correct translation is
quote:"... Again I tell you, it is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Yahweh." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be redeemed?" YAHshua looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with Yahweh all things a possible."
Thanks Karl for correcting me
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 11-25-2002]
Going to have to correct you again, Blitz (sorry!)
The Greek does say Kamelon (accusative of Kamelos) (look it up at http://www.greekbible.com). If there was a copying error, it was before the texts we now possess. The site you found is a bit kooky - rather obsessed with his false etymology of names for God and Jesus in English translations. He falsly claims that Jehovah = Iovis (genitive case of Iuppiter), Jesus = Ge-Zeus, Adonai = Adonis, and other such linguistic nonsense.
But I digress.
Be critical where you get info from. There is a lot of fruitcake on the web, and masses of religious fruitcake.
quote:Originally posted by Zhimbo: Is the Aramaic (I believe that's the right language for what we're tlaking about here) word for camel similar to "camolis"?
Hi all! :-)
I believe the word is originally aramaic, that being the Aramaic wrod "gamla", which could mean Camel, beam or large rope. The semetic root word being GML meaning 1)To ripen or 2)To bestow upon.
The meaning as a rope can be confirmed in the work of 10th century aramaic lexiconographer Mar Bahlul who wrote an aramaic dictionary and gives the meaning a "a large rope used to bind ships". This meaning is confirmed also in the writings of george lamsa.. In his books, George M. Lamsa lists the Aramaic word GMLA as a word "with many meanings" and states that it can mean "Large rope; Camel; Beam" (The New Testament according to the Eastern Text; George M. Lamsa; 1940 ; p. xxiv). Elsewhere Lamsa writes;
The Aramaic word GAMLA is the same word for "camel" and "a large rope". Matt. 19:24 should read, "It is easier for a rope to go through a needle's eye, etc." (The Four
And in ... TEACH YOURSELF ARAMAIC By Dr. Mar Aprem; Mar Narsai Press Trichur, Kerala, India; 1981; p. 95
THE NEW COVENANT PESHITTA ARAMAIC TEXT WITH A HEBREW TRANSLATION The Bible Society; Jerusalem; 1986 p.356
The hebrew word GMLH seems also derived form the aramaic..
GMLH Post Biblical Hebrew; gangway, gangboard. Palestinian Aramaic GMLA; of uncertain origin. - A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English; By Rabbi Ernest David Klein Ph.D.; 1987; p.103
The arabic word JAMEL also means to bear a burden.
On the greek loan word Khamelos..... "Gk. kamelos (whence L. camelus), is a loan word from Heb.-Phon. GML" - A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English; By Rabbi Ernest David Klein Ph.D.; 1987; p.103
Now according to the MANUAL GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT 3rd Ed. by G. Abbott-Smith; 1939; p. 229; there is an alternate spelling for Greek KAMHLOS which is KAMILOS. A GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AND OTHER EARLY CHRISTIAN LITERATURE; by Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich; 1957; p. 402; states that KAMILOS can mean "rope."
Hope this is a help...:-)
[This message has been edited by judge, 11-25-2002]
quote:Originally posted by Karl: I've heard the rope/camel point before - since the gospels were written in Greek, Greek is the relevant language.
Just a small note: though the gospels do appear to have been written in greek-- there is a some debate that aramaic is the original language, which I have been looking into lately-- aramaic was certainly a major language of the region at the time, so mixing and matching a bit would be the human thing to do.
YusufAli: To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin.
[This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 11-27-2002]