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Author Topic:   Eye of the needle
Frank4YAHWEH
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 47 (30456)
01-28-2003 3:08 PM


Greetings ALL,

I have updated my web page: Camel Through The Eye Of A Needle?.

I am also known on this thread as one of the many "religious fruitcakes" on the web by Karl.

------------------
(ALL) Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH(WEH)!" YAHshua said, "But I do not seek My own esteem; there is One Who seeks it, and He judges." (YAHchanan [John] 8:50)

[This message has been edited by Frank4YAHWEH, 02-07-2003]


  
Frank4YAHWEH
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 47 (36524)
04-08-2003 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Peter
12-11-2002 7:16 AM


Seems Be Saying That It Is In Error Within Itself
Here are two passages from the so called, "Holy Bible" that seems to indicate in itself that there are errors made by the scribes (copyist). Compare diverse translations of these passages. Note that the Authorized King James Version seems to hide the meaning of the first passage.

Yeremyah (Jeremiah) 8:8-10 & 16:19

------------------
(ALL) Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH(WEH)!" YAHshua said, "But I do not seek My own esteem; there is One Who seeks it, and He judges." (YAHchanan [John] 8:50)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Peter, posted 12-11-2002 7:16 AM Peter has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by John, posted 04-08-2003 7:07 PM Frank4YAHWEH has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 47 (36529)
04-08-2003 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Frank4YAHWEH
04-08-2003 6:23 PM


Re: Seems Be Saying That It Is In Error Within Itself
What, specifically, do you feel was concealed by the KJV?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Frank4YAHWEH, posted 04-08-2003 6:23 PM Frank4YAHWEH has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Frank4YAHWEH, posted 08-03-2003 8:39 PM John has responded

  
sagg
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 47 (37213)
04-17-2003 11:28 AM


quote:
There are a few places in the Bible where a prophet will say, "The word of the Lord came to me, and he said ..." But there is no place in the Bible where it says, "This Book is the Word of God."

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed

[This message has been edited by sagg, 04-18-2003]


Replies to this message:
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Frank4YAHWEH
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 47 (48498)
08-03-2003 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by John
04-08-2003 7:07 PM


Re: Seems Be Saying That It Is In Error Within Itself
John,

Did you even bother to compare diverse translations of the passages that I posted to that of the A.K.J.V.?

What I see concealed by the A.K.J.V. tranlators is that the scribes (copyist) were in error in their copying of the previous manuscripts. Yes, I do believe wholeheartedly that the scribes (copyist) and in turn the translators are in error in their copying and translating. I believe that they did this unintentionally in some cases, but for the most part intentionally for the purpose to deceive. (See Deuteronomy 4:2 & Revelation 22:18-19.

------------------
(ALL) Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH(WEH)!" YAHshua said, "But I do not seek My own esteem; there is One Who seeks it, and He judges." (YAHchanan [John] 8:50 & 5:30)

[This message has been edited by Frank4YAHWEH, 08-03-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by John, posted 04-08-2003 7:07 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by John, posted 08-03-2003 9:12 PM Frank4YAHWEH has responded
 Message 40 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-26-2003 10:22 PM Frank4YAHWEH has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 47 (48503)
08-03-2003 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Frank4YAHWEH
08-03-2003 8:39 PM


Re: Seems Be Saying That It Is In Error Within Itself
quote:
Did you even bother to compare diverse translations of the passages that I posted to that of the A.K.J.V.?

Yes.

What exactly do you feel has been concealed? Some detail would be nice.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Frank4YAHWEH, posted 08-03-2003 8:39 PM Frank4YAHWEH has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Frank4YAHWEH, posted 11-25-2003 2:03 PM John has not yet responded

  
Frank4YAHWEH
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 47 (69228)
11-25-2003 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by John
08-03-2003 9:12 PM


What Is Being Concealed?
What is being concealed is the fact that the scribes were in error. In the A.K.J.V. this is not being made clean as in comparison to other translations.

Hmmm! How can I say it in any other way that you might understand what I am telling you? How much more detailed can I get? Read the A.K.J.V. of the passage in question and compare it to other translations.

------------------
(ALL) Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH(WEH)!" YAHshua said, "But I do not seek My own esteem; there is One Who seeks it, and He judges." (YAHchanan [John] 8:50)

[This message has been edited by Frank4YAHWEH, 11-25-2003]

[This message has been edited by Frank4YAHWEH, 11-25-2003]

[This message has been edited by Frank4YAHWEH, 11-25-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by John, posted 08-03-2003 9:12 PM John has not yet responded

  
Dilyias
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 47 (69427)
11-26-2003 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by sagg
04-17-2003 11:28 AM


quote:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed

Firstly, it could also just as well mean "All scripture THAT is God-breathed is available..."

But even if you take it to mean your way, how do we know WHAT is scripture? At the time that sentence was written down, the NT was nothing more than a bunch of letters written by guys to churches. The Gospels weren't even written yet. The only thing considered scripture was the OT Canon. The Law and Prophets.

So, years later we group together a bunch of letters including this one and the gospels, call them "Scripture" and all of a sudden this makes them God breathed? I don't think so.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Asgara, posted 11-26-2003 4:38 PM Dilyias has not yet responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 39 of 47 (69434)
11-26-2003 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dilyias
11-26-2003 2:20 PM


DocBill started an interesting thread on the topic of scriptural inspiration. You can find it here: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=6&t=133&p=2 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=6&t=133&p=2">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=6&t=133&p=2

A quote from the third message of that thread:

Doctrbill writes:

{Lest anyone should misunderstand the terminology here: the word scripture simply means anything written. It is not an exclusive reference to the Bible.}

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dilyias, posted 11-26-2003 2:20 PM Dilyias has not yet responded

    
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 4281 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 40 of 47 (69501)
11-26-2003 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Frank4YAHWEH
08-03-2003 8:39 PM


Re: Seems Be Saying That It Is In Error Within Itself
I believe that they did this unintentionally in some cases, but for the most part intentionally for the purpose to deceive.

Thanks for sharing what you believe but, if you'll forgive me, so what? Vague and unsubstantiated claims get a bit tiresome after a while. Better would be specific examples with specific evidence of intent.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Frank4YAHWEH, posted 08-03-2003 8:39 PM Frank4YAHWEH has not yet responded

  
sharingbrie
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 47 (77184)
01-08-2004 5:20 PM


Trying to expand our mental limitations RE God's wisdom
I often feel frustrated by the seemingly endless debates inspired by the Words of God. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you are trying to "interpret" a passage of the Bible, chances are that is because you are not pleased with the message and would like for it to say something else to suit your own desires and needs. THINK ABOUT IT!!! I'm no different because I've certainly been there. It's in our nature, just as a child's nature is to want his own way. We are no different than a child in that respect.

With the topic of the "Camel passing through the needle's eye", try to open your mind and consider this. It is not impossible for a camel to pass through a needle's eye, but in order for it to happen the camel would practically have to be liquified and then poured through little by little. (HEAR ME OUT, I HAVE A PROVOCATIVE POINT)

I believe that the camel is a metaphor for a wealthy person. In the desert-like climate in which this parable was told, the camel can store an abundance of water for itself and therefore can easily survive as a large, important creature of its environment. This would qualify the camel as "wealthy". If a camel was to pass through the needle's eye it would need to be destroyed first, losing all that water and all that stamina that it had obtained, just as a wealthy person would have to be willing to lose his wealth before he could be welcome in God's Kingdom.

And in the end, it would be much easier to destroy a camel and painstakingly pass it through the eye of a needle than it would be for a man to willingly give up his own wealth for the promise of everlasting life; and much easier still for that wealthy man to manipulate this parable's meaning to serve of the purpose of that wealthy man not being expected to have a willingness to give up his earthly fortune for the sake of a heavenly one.

[This message has been edited by sharingbrie, 01-08-2004]


  
JonathanTheology
Inactive Junior Member


Message 42 of 47 (77916)
01-12-2004 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by judge
11-25-2002 6:46 AM


Actually
Actually, Jesus Christ did not say it is impossible for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, He said grarelyh shall a rich man enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. The translation of Jesus Christ proclaiming that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, which is a small gate/doorway is therefore more likely than to translate Him as giving an analogy of a rope and an actual needle, which implies that it is impossible for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus Christ was not teaching the theology that it is impossible for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but that it is rare.

Sincerely,
TRUTH, Jonathan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by judge, posted 11-25-2002 6:46 AM judge has not yet responded

  
daedelus901
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 47 (286674)
02-14-2006 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by metatron
11-24-2002 12:07 AM


Ancient saying???
Metatron, let me say that your quotes and inverted linguistic depiction is pseudo-scholarly flotsome and this is a compliment to you, believe me.

First, the passage from Matthew's Gospel was not an "ancient Christian saying", it was coined and stated first and only by Jesus Bar Joseph, i.e. Christ. The saying has never been discovered prior to His recorded historical statement.

Second, the Greek nominative "kamelos" in it's Nominative, Masculine, Singular form is the Greek transliterated form for "camel".

Third, Christians "stole it", from whom, Christ?

Last, linguistically, if Christ spoke Aramaic (and He Likely did in this passage as he was speaking of the Jewish elite), he would have used the Amamaic/Syriac word "gamela" which may mean in this context both "camel" or "rope". Given the sharp rhetoric of Christ and His wit to confound the haughty and arrogant, He likely meant both. I will leave you to figure out the reason and rest of it...if you can. You libs are so poorly educated and so quick to judge concerning what you do not understand. The basis for all the sciences emerged from a Reformation and Rennaissance brought to you by Christians...but you fully intend to go your own way...even to the end denying what Christians have done for you in scholastic, scholarly, and scientific matters.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by metatron, posted 11-24-2002 12:07 AM metatron has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Modulous, posted 02-14-2006 9:23 PM daedelus901 has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 44 of 47 (286677)
02-14-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by daedelus901
02-14-2006 8:40 PM


camel = rope
he would have used the Amamaic/Syriac word "gamela" which may mean in this context both "camel" or "rope".

Do you have a reference for this? I can't find anything online to confirm it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by daedelus901, posted 02-14-2006 8:40 PM daedelus901 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by rakaz, posted 02-15-2006 9:45 AM Modulous has not yet responded

  
rakaz
Junior Member (Idle past 4155 days)
Posts: 15
From: The Netherlands
Joined: 01-24-2006


Message 45 of 47 (286822)
02-15-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Modulous
02-14-2006 9:23 PM


Re: camel = rope
quote:
he would have used the Amamaic/Syriac word "gamela" which may mean in this context both "camel" or "rope".

Do you have a reference for this? I can't find anything online to confirm it.


I believe it is based on a translation of the Peshitta by Lamsa. The word 'gamla' is supposed to mean both 'camel' and 'rope' according to Lamsa. This link originated from the fact that rope was made of camelhair.

This is how Lamsa translates Matthew 19:24:

Again I say to you, It is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/dr_george_lamsa_bible.htm


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Replies to this message:
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