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Author Topic:   Which Version of the Bible is the Word of God?
PaulK
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Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 92 of 174 (498495)
02-11-2009 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Peg
02-10-2009 3:42 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
quote:

Also if you look at the Gospel of Luke we see that he used public records to write down the genealogy of Jesus.

No, we don't see that Luke did any such thing. Nor do we have any good reason to suppose that Luke had access to such records or that they even existed when Luke was writing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:42 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Nighttrain, posted 02-11-2009 8:54 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 12:24 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 96 of 174 (498714)
02-13-2009 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Peg
02-13-2009 12:24 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
I note that you provide absolutely no support for your assertion that there is any indication in Luke, that Luke used any public records. Probably because - as we both know - that isn't true.

quote:

According to Jospehus (jewish historian 1st century) the priests kept accurate records of the tribes of their people for the purpose of the Priests to be able to marry only a woman of the priestly tribe.

According to your own quote the records are constructed in this way:


...an exact catalogue of our priests' marriages is kept; I mean at Egypt and at Babylon, or in any other place of the rest of the habitable earth, whithersoever our priests are scattered; for they send to Jerusalem the ancient names of their parents in writing, as well as those of their remoter ancestors...

Joseph was not a priest, so he would not have done this.

Also Josephus admits that records were lost on a number of occasions - including the Jewish Revolt which happened before Luke wrote.

So where is your evidence that records of Joseph's genealogy existed and were available to Luke ?


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 Message 95 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 12:24 AM Peg has responded

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 107 of 174 (498897)
02-15-2009 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Peg
02-15-2009 3:45 AM


Re: Waste of time
quote:

if you dont mind, i provided evidence for the births and marriages register of the jewish people. I did not make it up nor do i need too.

No, you provided evidence for a register of Jewish priest's marriages - and one which had been disrupted by war.

quote:

Discussions certainly do not work when some simply breezes over the evidence provided.

Then stop doing it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 3:45 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 5:09 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 109 of 174 (498901)
02-15-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Peg
02-15-2009 5:09 AM


Re: Waste of time
quote:

if priests could easily check the register to find out if a particular woman was from the priestly tribe then obviously the register contained accurate information about which tribe she was from, likely this was thru her fathers line.

IF they could. But where does it say that they could ? And I thought you insisted that Mary was of the House of David (tribe of Judah), which would rule her out of being in the priestly tribe (Levi).

quote:

the only way the register could do this is if it listed all of the tribes and their descendants

Obviously not, since the priestly line were all of the tribe of Levi.

quote:

If it did not list all of the descendants, then how could a priest know if a woman was of a priestly tribe or not?

Why would they have to list descendants of other tribes to work out if a woman was a Levite or not ?

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


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 Message 108 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 5:09 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 121 of 174 (499288)
02-18-2009 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Peg
02-18-2009 3:30 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

it was at the temple in Jerusalem where many scrolls were located...perhaps even some of the original writings. Josephus would have been talking about these scrolls and the christians would have been quoting passages from these scrolls also

At the time Josephus was writing the Temple had been destroyed. There wouldn't have been anything left there.

And we know that Christians quoted from Greek translations, not from any "original" texts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Peg, posted 02-18-2009 3:30 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Peg, posted 02-19-2009 6:42 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 123 of 174 (499546)
02-19-2009 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Peg
02-19-2009 6:42 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

the temple was destroyed in 70CE by the romans... Josephus reports that it was completely burned to the ground and the artifacts inside were carried off by Roman soldiers as booty

So your assertion that Josephus was writing about scrolls kept at the Temple was false.

quote:

so there were scrolls there before this time....these would be the scrolls that Jesus read from when he did his public readings...

Really ? Where is your evidence that Jesus ever obtained a scroll from the Temple ?

quote:

...there is also evidence that the greek septuagaint version was in use because the Apostle Paul evidently uses this version in many of his quotes in his writings but not all.... this is evidence that more then that translation was in use at the time

I think that you'll find that all early Christian writers used the Septuagint.

You do realise that the Septuagint differs from the Masoretic text - and not just as a result of the translation ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Peg, posted 02-19-2009 6:42 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Peg, posted 02-19-2009 6:51 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 125 of 174 (499729)
02-20-2009 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Peg
02-19-2009 6:51 PM


RE: Which One
quote:

not at all

the scrolls were housed there for centuries before the place was destroyed in 70ce


That doesn't mean that they were still there AFTER 70ce, when Josephus was writing.
Don't you think that the fact that the Temple was a burnt-out ruin makes it an unlikely place to keep valuable scrolls ?

quote:

In the Jewish synagogues there was a public reading of a portion of the Law on the Sabbath and they still do this today.
It was Jesus custom to do this just as all other male jews did it.

The scrolls used today don't come from the Temple. As far as I know they are usually kept at the synagogue in question. What makes you think that it was any different in Jesus' day ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Peg, posted 02-19-2009 6:51 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 2:10 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 127 of 174 (499732)
02-20-2009 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Peg
02-20-2009 2:10 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

i dont beleive i ever said that they were there after.

we are talking about Jesus day which was up to 33 CE... that is before 70ce


Wrong. We are talking about the time when Josephus wrote the work in question, That is AFTER 70CE.

quote:

and biblical scrolls were not only kept at jerusalem, they had synagogues all over the place... i dont know what your point is

My point is that there is no reason to believe your assertion that Jesus read from a scroll taken from the Temple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 2:10 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 2:56 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 129 of 174 (499742)
02-20-2009 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Peg
02-20-2009 2:56 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

why dont you ask the jews

I have a better idea. Why don't you just admit that you were wrong.

Josephus was not talking about scrolls stored at the Temple, because he was speaking of the situation as it was at the time he wrote - and the Temple had been destroyed by then (your OWN date for the time of writing is c100CE).

It is highly unlikely that Jesus read from a scroll held at the Temple - and nothing in the Bible says that he ever did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 2:56 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 4:36 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 131 of 174 (499746)
02-20-2009 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Peg
02-20-2009 4:36 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

You do understand what a historian is
you know that historians write history

Josephus was not just a historian. Now if you want to provide more of the quote to support your claim then please go ahead. But don't expect me to look through all Jospehus work to try to find evidence that you should have provided in the first place.

quote:

I quote a scripture earlier that records that Jesus had the custom of reading aloud at the temple on the sabbath

No you didn't. It had him reading aloud in a synagogue, not the Temple.

Instead of making up excuse after excuse to try to pretend you are right why don't you just make the effort to get things right in the first place ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 4:36 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 5:43 AM PaulK has responded
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 133 of 174 (499753)
02-20-2009 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Peg
02-20-2009 5:43 AM


RE: Which One
The Bible is not inerrant and you're not even nearly inerrant - even though you constantly give the impresion that you think that you are.

Now do you intended to support your claims about Josephus ? Or are you taking the attitude all-too-typical of creationists that you must be right unless proven wrong (even though you have no evidence for your assertion whatsoever).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 5:43 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 2:41 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 136 of 174 (499849)
02-21-2009 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Peg
02-21-2009 2:41 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

He is talking about the scrolls of the Hebrew scriptures located at the city where he lived, Jerusalem.

On what do you base this claim ? He seems to be talking about the Hewbrew scriptures in general, not any specific scrolls. And at the time of his death - and likely the time of writing - he was living in Rome.

I really think that you need to learn to read properly. This is hardly the first time you've had serious problems understanding that a book didn't say what you wanted it to say. It seeems to be a defect common to creationists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 2:41 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 4:49 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 138 of 174 (499863)
02-21-2009 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Peg
02-21-2009 4:49 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

what do you imagine the hebrew scriptures to be exactly?

Do you think that all references to "the Bible" refer to a specific copy kept in the Vatican or somewhere ? If not, what makes you think that Josephus is referring to specific physical copies kept in a specific place when the quote never suggests any such thing ?

Also, what makes you think that he is writing about the past when the quote comes from an apologetic, not a history ? Why wouldn't he be writing about his present time ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 4:49 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 5:26 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 140 of 174 (499867)
02-21-2009 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Peg
02-21-2009 5:26 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

what makes you skeptical that the Jews kept their scriptures at the temple in Jerusalem?

The fact that it was a burnt-out ruin. As I keep saying.

quote:

Are you also skeptical that the synagogues in other cities had the hebrew scriptures located there?

I've already said that they had copies. Try to follow the conversation. (i.e. remember the context).

quote:

Are you skeptical that the jewish religious system kept any copies of hebrew scriptures anywhere?

Obviously not. Are you ? If not, tell me why you think that Josephus must have been talking about specific copies kept at the Temple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 5:26 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 5:47 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16585
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 142 of 174 (499871)
02-21-2009 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Peg
02-21-2009 5:47 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

the temple stood for many centuries before its final destruction by the romans. What was in the temple before 70CE? Are you saying that it did not hold any scriptures in it before its destruction in 70CE.?

No, I'm disagreeing with your claim that Josephus writing c100CE (your date) must have been talking about specific copies of the Jewish scriptures held at the Temple.

Why exactly are you having such difficulty understanding that ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 5:47 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 6:43 AM PaulK has responded

  
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