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Author Topic:   Which Version of the Bible is the Word of God?
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 16 of 174 (495995)
01-25-2009 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by BobAliceEve
01-25-2009 2:10 PM


I`m right. No, I`m right
It does not matter which person says they are right. Of course we all say we are right - who would be dumb enough to defend a position we new was false, unless we had an agenda? In fact, an outsider can not tell one from another (wolf in sheep's clothing or the real sheep so to speak).
It is, however, completely logical to report that the Creator can and does tell the Truth to those who are interested. No one can argue with the statement that an answer from the Expert is the best answer. The good news is that you do not have to believe me or anyone else. You can know for yourself.

Many wars have been fought and millions died, all insisting they were on a 'mission from God'. They all 'knew'. Major schisms in Christendom were fueled by 'an answer from the Expert'. Who were the outsiders and insiders?
So, I think we can put this approach to bed.


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3161 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 17 of 174 (496020)
01-25-2009 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
01-25-2009 9:42 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
no, the translation is also literal, except that it is as literal as possible in the language it is being translated into. So if the greek verse is talking about walking down a long stretch of road, the literal translation is also relaying the message of walking down a long stretch of road.

thats what a literal translation is. It doesnt mean 'word for word'...because that would be very difficult to read due to the differences in grammer

the verse still needs to be translated into readable english, but the context and subject is as close as possible to the original.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by anglagard, posted 01-25-2009 8:47 PM Peg has responded
 Message 19 by Nighttrain, posted 01-25-2009 10:46 PM Peg has responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2200
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 18 of 174 (496029)
01-25-2009 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Peg
01-25-2009 7:53 PM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
As best I can tell, you are among the advocates of a literal interpretation of the Bible over all other human testimony, empirical knowledge gained through science, and each and every other interpretation of any religious text including both other sects of Christianity and all other religions.

So it should be easy to tell us all which exact Bible translation is literally the word of God.

Buzsaw could do it, why can't you?


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Peg, posted 01-25-2009 7:53 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 2:48 AM anglagard has responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 19 of 174 (496043)
01-25-2009 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Peg
01-25-2009 7:53 PM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
the verse still needs to be translated into readable english, but the context and subject is as close as possible to the original.

Hi, Peg, but that is precisely the problem. We don`t have the originals (known as autographs), so we have nothing to compare.

Take the ending of Mark, for example. We have four ways to close. Which one follows the autograph?

Do we:
a. Follow the oldest?

b. Follow the most mentioned in surviving manuscripts?

c. Follow only Greek MS as Mark wrote in Greek?

d. Follow any references in Matt or Luke as they were copyists of Mark?

e. None of the above, but go with a gut feeling, a.k.a. guidance of the HS?

Edited by Nighttrain, : Tidied up ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Peg, posted 01-25-2009 7:53 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 3:13 AM Nighttrain has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3161 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 20 of 174 (496216)
01-27-2009 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by anglagard
01-25-2009 8:47 PM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
all bibles in their original languages are the word of God

all bibles that have been translated correctly are the word of God

I would even go so far as to say that all bible translations are the word of God. Unfortunately, some of them are just badly translated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by anglagard, posted 01-25-2009 8:47 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by bluescat48, posted 01-27-2009 7:23 AM Peg has responded
 Message 32 by anglagard, posted 01-28-2009 2:53 AM Peg has responded
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2009 2:03 AM Peg has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3161 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 21 of 174 (496217)
01-27-2009 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Nighttrain
01-25-2009 10:46 PM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
Hi Nightrain,

there are so many very old manuscripts in existence, that you can be 100% confident that what we have today is as authentic as what the 1st century christians were reading.

the long and short conclusions of mark is evidence of how well documented the bible is. Those two conclusions are not to be considered as authentic because they are not found in some of the key ancient manuscripts.

Of course we dont have any original writings anymore, but what we do have are copies of the originals...some manuscripts date back to the 1st century and so of course we have some very old specimens with which to keep as templates of all of todays translations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Nighttrain, posted 01-25-2009 10:46 PM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Nighttrain, posted 01-27-2009 5:37 AM Peg has responded
 Message 24 by Brian, posted 01-27-2009 6:55 AM Peg has responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 22 of 174 (496228)
01-27-2009 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Peg
01-27-2009 3:13 AM


gimme those oldtime MS
the long and short conclusions of mark is evidence of how well documented the bible is. Those two conclusions are not to be considered as authentic because they are not found in some of the key ancient manuscripts.

Hi, Peg, care to put a name to those 'key ancient manuscripts'?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 3:13 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 6:03 AM Nighttrain has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3161 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 23 of 174 (496230)
01-27-2009 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Nighttrain
01-27-2009 5:37 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
one would be the Codex Sinaiticus another is the Codex Vaticanus No.1209. both of these date back to the 4th century and neither of them have the two conclusions in them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Nighttrain, posted 01-27-2009 5:37 AM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Nighttrain, posted 01-27-2009 7:23 PM Peg has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3191 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 24 of 174 (496233)
01-27-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Peg
01-27-2009 3:13 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
some manuscripts date back to the 1st century

Name one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 3:13 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2421 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 25 of 174 (496236)
01-27-2009 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Peg
01-27-2009 2:48 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
all bibles in their original languages are the word of God

all bibles that have been translated correctly are the word of God

I would even go so far as to say that all bible translations are the word of God. Unfortunately, some of them are just badly translated.

How do you come to the conclusion that any translation or that even the original writings are the word of God? These are the words of men who wrote on what they saw, felt etc. They were originally told through word of mouth and only much later written down as the books now called the bible.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 2:48 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 4:52 PM bluescat48 has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3161 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 26 of 174 (496316)
01-27-2009 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Brian
01-27-2009 6:55 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
one is to be found in the collection of the Fouad Papyri inventory number 266, in Cairo's egyption papyrus society, containing portions of the second half of Deuteronomy. It is dated 1st century.
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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3161 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 27 of 174 (496319)
01-27-2009 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bluescat48
01-27-2009 7:23 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
hi bluescat
there are a few things that show its not merely man's words

prophecy, and there are many very accurate prophecies that have come true. And the writers of prophecy even admitted they did not know what they were writing. eg. Daniel's writings show that he had no idea what the 'wild beast' prophecies were about.

The truthfulness of the writers - they spoke openly about their own sins and their failings. Even Moses was punished by God and forbidden to see the promised land. Do you really think that if he was creating a new religion he would tell everyone how his God punished him? Leaders of nations dont usually do that.

Laws - laws that man cannot enforce such as 'covetousness'- Its one of the 10 commandments, 'thou shalt not desire anything of your fellowmans' . Do you really believe that a man would invent a law that in unenforceable? And how could anyone know if someone was coveting their fellow mans possesions? How could a person be judged on such a law?


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 Message 25 by bluescat48, posted 01-27-2009 7:23 AM bluescat48 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by bluescat48, posted 01-27-2009 5:38 PM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 31 by Nighttrain, posted 01-27-2009 7:34 PM Peg has responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2421 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 28 of 174 (496322)
01-27-2009 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Peg
01-27-2009 4:52 PM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
prophecy, and there are many very accurate prophecies that have come true. And the writers of prophecy even admitted they did not know what they were writing. eg. Daniel's writings show that he had no idea what the 'wild beast' prophecies were about.

There is no evidence as to when or by who such prophesies were written not any evidence the the supposed prophesies were in fact fulfilled.

The truthfulness of the writers - they spoke openly about their own sins and their failings. Even Moses was punished by God and forbidden to see the promised land. Do you really think that if he was creating a new religion he would tell everyone how his God punished him? Leaders of nations dont usually do that.

We do not know who actually wrote these passages therefore we do not know whether what was said by whomever was really stated.

Laws - laws that man cannot enforce such as 'covetousness'- Its one of the 10 commandments, 'thou shalt not desire anything of your fellowmans' . Do you really believe that a man would invent a law that in unenforceable? And how could anyone know if someone was coveting their fellow mans possesions? How could a person be judged on such a law?

The 10 commandments weren't the first set of laws. There are other similar codes throughout the Mesopotamian/Canaanite areas. The So-called "Law," was set down by Levite Priests in the book of Leviticus. Whether this is even correct is subject to speculation.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 4:52 PM Peg has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2421 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 29 of 174 (496323)
01-27-2009 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Peg
01-27-2009 4:39 PM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
It is dated 1st century.

You didn't state whether that was C.E. or B. C. E. but in either case that is over 1000 years after the alleged stories in Deuteronomy were allegedly written.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 4:39 PM Peg has not yet responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 30 of 174 (496330)
01-27-2009 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Peg
01-27-2009 6:03 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
one would be the Codex Sinaiticus another is the Codex Vaticanus No.1209. both of these date back to the 4th century and neither of them have the two conclusions in them.

But, but, but, Vaticanus(B) and Sinaiticus (aleph)don`t agree with each other.
And when you look at their provenance, we have no records of their history before 1492 for B and c. 1850 for Sinaiticus. Who knows who was responsible for their compilation or where? Guesswork seems to be the standard for possible early manuscripts, while paleography sweeps with a wide broom.


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 Message 23 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 6:03 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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