Why do Christians make God out to be dumb?

In reply to crashfrog saying God could have just said "let there be no gap", this is true, God could have done it that way. The reason He didn't however is because this was the only way He could show His love for us."For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23If our sins are not forgiven then we will burn eternally in Hell, that is the death this verse referes to. Without Jesus in the OT, animals had to be sacrificed everytime a person sinned, so that the animal could take the place of the human. Jesus ended the need for animal sacrifices by giving His own life to forgive all sins, past, present and future. It was not a human sacrifice, it was a God sacrifice. God loved us enough to forsake His son, Himself so that we could live eternally in Jesus Christ our Lord. God's salvation a free gift to us, whether you choose to accept it or not is up to you. God is great and merciful, He taught us how to love through the sacrifice of Christ.

"If God wanted to show his love for us, there's four airplanes I can think of that he could have done something about, way back in September 2001."God designed us to have free will, so that we could make moral choices. Since we are not "programmed" to do only good, we have both the ability for good and the possibility of evil. If one chooses evil, there will be consequences for that evil.
Just because God made us with the ability to choose, does not make Him responsible for the actions we take. For example, imagine God made this big road with all these exits. God has told us to drive on the big road and never get off at any of the exits. Now we get on the road - and some choose to get off of it at the exits. God is not responsible for those people getting off the road, He even told them not to. Those people are responsible for their actions.
I can't tell you why God allowed the 9-11 attacks to happen because no one is able to fully understand God's ways, and if we could then God would be no larger than our own finite minds.
Also, don't try saying something like "What about all of the innocent people killed in the towers?" either. Though it is sad that they died, they weren't innocent. Has there ever been anyone other than Christ who was completely without sin? No. we are all guilty of sin, therefore not one single person can ever be innocent."Alternatively he could do what I do to my wife to show her I love her - tell her every day. Folks would be a little more inclined to believe in a loving God if he'd return some phone calls."(I apologize for my previous statment in which I said "only", it should have been "best" and there are also more reason than just that.) Sure, God could say to us everyday in a loud, booming voice "I love you", but that's not how God works. God doesn't want us to believe in Him because we have poof of His existence, He wants us to belive because of faith. Besides, He tells us He loves us everyday anyways, you just don't know its God because you have dismissed these things as normal. For example, look at your wife, your job, your friends, your family, every single one of your possessions. You may think you got it all because of your own hard work, but God gave it to you because He loves you and wants you to be happy. On the other hand, happiness is possible without all of that, a homeless person who loves God could be far more happy than anyone with money who doesn't love God.

---

"Forgiveness is easy. You just forgive. Sacrifice isn't a part of that."The main problem here is that you are viewing the process of sin and forgiveness differently than how God views it. As I stated previously, all people are sinners. So if someone sins against you, you can easily forgive them without need for a sacrifice because you're both sinners, and sin (being part of both of you) can't separate you. However, God is pure and holy, sin is evil, the two can't fit together. So, in order for us to be with God, our sin has to be taken from us. That was done by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This is an old example, but it still works: Imagine a deep valley that goes down into Hell, you on one side, God on the other. If you try to jump the gorge, you'll fall into Hell. When God sent Jesus into the world to be crucified, Jesus became a bridge across the gorge to God. So if you don't belive in Jesus, you can't get to God.I hope that I have now answered at least one of your questions.[This message has been edited by SoulFire, 04-05-2004]

---

Only DNA is known to produce DNA. No chemical interaction of molecules has even come close to producing this ultra-complex code which is so essential to all known life.

Imagine you have a pool filled with alligators. No fence, but the alligators can't get out. You can set up signs and yell out "don't come near the alligators" until you're blue in the face, but if some guy wanders into the pool and gets eaten by the alligators, you're still responsible.If the guy "wandered" into the pool knowing that it was dangerous, then it was his choice to do so, and so how am I responsible for his stupid mistake? I admit that if it happened by accident that the guy fell in, then it would be my fault, however, people do not accidently sin (though they may not do it willingly either).

---

But that is how love works.Being only 15, I can't claim to know what the love you are speaking of is like. Though one thing I can be sure of is that different kinds of love exist, do you love your brother, sister, mother or father in the same way that you love your wife? I doubt it. God's nature is love EDITED: (and saying "God can do absolutely anything" IS true (previously said this was not true), which makes me NOT reconsider my previous statements about Him being able to abolish sin by simply saying "let there be no gap") one thing that He can do but doesn't want to is go against His own nature. God's love is perfect, it is far greater than any love we could give to or recieve from any human. Also, remember that actions speak louder than words. This in mind, I think that you could tell someone you love them, but if you don't act accordingly and relate to the person as though you never said you loved them, they probably won't believe you. Again, the death of Christ comes into play.

---

Bad analogy. Bridges work whether you believe in them or not.Imagine this, you need to cross a massive valley, and infront of you is an, old rotten rope bridge. There is also a person there who says that there is a better bridge 500,000 miles to the left or right, you don't know which and the only way you can find it is if they lead the way. They are willing to show you the exact spot the bridge is at, but if you take the old bridge or go off on you're own to find the better one, you're sure to eventually fall off the edge and die (though you can return to the person at anytime before this). The bridge will work whether you believe it exists or not, but the question is, are you willing to let the person lead you 500,000 miles to a bridge you can't be sure is even there? Now imagine that God is on the other side of the valley (the side you need to get to), and the person willing to lead you is Jesus (who is the only way to get to the Father, God).I hope this is a better analogy than the first, but if not I'll be more than willing to come up with others.

---

Are you saying that I can do something that God can't do - that is, forgive your trespasses against me without the need for blood?As I said in my last post, us forgiving sin is entirely different from God forgiving sin. God is pure, and sin cannot co-exist with him, so we need to have our sins removed from us before we can be with Him. While on the other hand, all humans have sin within them, so sin is not a factor in separating humans and keeping them from continuing their relationships with each other. This is also affected by my new knowledge of God and His ways, mainly being that there are a very small number of things that He can't do (such as go against His own nature). Sorry for any previous confusion, as well as any new confusion that this is sure to produce.[This message has been edited by SoulFire, 04-06-2004][This message has been edited by SoulFire, 04-06-2004]

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

Before I begin, please excuse me for all of my past mistakes, because I too am learning about this subject as I do some research to answer your questions.
That said, one mistake I have made is saying there was some things He was uncapable of doing. Sorry again for any confusion this may have accidentaly caused you.

---

...your failure to take all reasonable precautions to prevent that - and a fence in this case is a pretty reasonable precaution - represents negligence."By building a fence around the pool, I would only be making it harder for people to get into the pool (if they decided thats what they wanted to do) they could just climb it and hop in. Technically, God did give us a fence (and this stems from nobody sinning accidently), God gave us a sence of morals (a climbable fence) that prevents us from accidently doing something we don't want to do (just as the fence would prevent people from accidently falling into the pool), but still allows us to do it if we choose to.If this is an unclimbable fence we're talking about, such as an electric fence, then it would be completely stopping people from doing what they want to do (if they feel like jumping in with the alligators). This would be the same as God taking away our free will and ability to make choices, which is not what He wants for us, or what He created us to be like.

---

...one of the things that characterizes love in all its forms is that it should be communicated.

​

God doesn't get to have a special kind of "God-love" that means he doesn't have to communicate it or act on it in any way.God doesn't have a special "God-love", and He does communicate his love, I said this before when I said, "look at your wife, your job, your friends, your family, every single one of your possessions. You may think you got it all because of your own hard work, but God gave it to you because He loves you and wants you to be happy." God acts differently than you or I, so you have to look at things differently inorder to see God's display of His love.

---

You've told me, over and over again, how sin needs to be taken care of. Fine, I get it. What I can't seem to get you to tell me is why the only way to do that is to kill the Son of Man.Again, another stupid mistake I made. The sacrificing of Jesus Christ was not the only way for God to atone for our sins, but it is the way He chose. I have no way of knowing why He did this, and nobody else can tell you, this is no longer a question of "Why COULDN'T God forgive our sin without a blood sacrifice," but a question of "Why DIDN'T God forgive our sin without a blood sacrifice." Again, no one can explain the way God works, so I would fail miserably if I tried to explain it to you.Sorry again for leading you to a couple of dead ends due to my lack of knowledge, but thanks for providing me with an oppurtunity to widen my own understanding of all of this.

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

In this alligator analogy of yours, the ease of access to the pool could be through a hole in the fence caused by vandals. These "vandals" could be seen as a representation of Satan, who's nature, contrary to God's, is evil. He has weakened mankind's will, making it easier for us to sin. It's not God's fault the hole got there and He will fix it, as can be read in the book of Revelation when the Second coming is described. Even if there were infinite good choices, we would still be "programmed" to do only good. That's not what God wanted for us. He wanted us to have the ability to choose good, with the possiblity of choosing evil. God's "free will" for us is not just choice itself, but rather the choice between good and evil, not just a number of choices for good. I don't quite get how God could intend to bribe you with things that distract you from Him. How could He bribe you to devote your entire life to Him, when the things He "bribes" you with distract you from Him? God knows that anyone who doesn't belive in Him could not be bribed to believe in Him, because they wouldn't thank Him or praise Him for any of it and would just enjoy it without thinking. How are they empty promises? God doesn't promises you these things in heaven, He promises you much more, if you were stuck in heaven with only the same things you had on Earth, it would undoubtedly get boring. However, heaven is perfection, paradise, you just can't get bored of perfection. You can only see where God is working if you have a personal relationship with Him. However, I can't make you believe in God, let alone enter into a personal relationship with Him, but I can offer a suggestion (whether you actually do it or not is up to you). First, be willing to belive that God exists and loves you, then pray and ask the Spirit of Truth (the Holy Spirit) to reveal the truth of Christ to you. After you have done that, read through Hebrews 10 (BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.). It doesn't take long, but as I said, do it only if you feel like it because there is no way that I can make you.Edited: Also, I ould suggest reading a few of the daily devotionals at Christianity - Beliefs and History of Faith in God and Jesus Christ (very bottom of the left side menu). They take maybe a minute or two each to read and there is a new one every day.[This message has been edited by SoulFire, 04-09-2004]

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

Ok, so you blame God for the existence of sin, I can't stop you from doing that. I've tried, but I failed. God is outside of time, not bound by it like we are. If God wanted to He could go back to the Garden of Eden and remove the serpent before it deceived Eve. I don't know why He didn't or doesn't, but neither you or I can tell God what He should or shouldn't do. Would you agree that "free will" could be described as our personal consciousness or decisions affecting the physical world? If so, then would you also agree that if we choose to do something nice for someone (like picking something up for them after they have dropped it), then they may think we are kind and thank us. On the other hand, if you decide to walk by them and ingore them, they may dislike you. You could be mean (or indifferent) or kind to someone in many different ways, but they will all have basicly the same affect (the person may like you and thank you, or despise you, or think nothing of you). If the only choices you have (good) have basicly the same affect, then what you do would happen whether you really chose to do it or not. That kind of thing would be more like fate than free will.
As for there being free will in Heaven, I can't answer that for certain because I have never been there. Though I can make a guess, Satan has no power in Heaven, so He wouldn't be able to persuade or deceive us to do evil, even though we would still have the capability of it. Or maybe there is a difference between Earthly free will and Heavenly free will, I would be unable say what it is, so don't bother asking me, it is just a guess.
Of course God has free will, but sin belongs to Satan, and God being far more powerful than Satan is unaffected by him. God may be capable of evil, but He chooses not to do it. I can't judge you based on what you said here, but you may have been mistaken in thinking you had that which you didn't. If you choose not to believe then I can't make you. Though I do stand by my suggestion to read the Bible, with or without praying before hand.

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

I said nothing about us not being able to tell right from wrong, what I said is that we can't tell God what to do, as in give Him orders or directions.

---

I have alot more to go on than just a statement that goes something like "I did, though. The problem was that whenever I thought I was talking to God, it turned out I was talking to myself." I myself cannot say that I have a good, strong relationship with God, but I'm more than willing to work on it. Aside from that, being Christian is believing in Christ, belonging to a religion, not necessarily having the personal relationship God designed you to have with Him. Having a personal relationship with God Himself is much more than just a religion.

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

Sorry, but I don't quite follow, determine what?

---

How, exactly, did you come to know God doesn't exist?

---

I don't know that I have such a relationship with God, I wish there was some easy way to tell but there isn't. I try not to make "coincidences out to be communications from God", but I have faith that He will make Himself known to me. I live by faith, that is how I choose to live. Ridicule me if you want, but we all have hope, and I place mine in God.

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

Again, we can't understand God's ways or what He does, so how can we determine whether or not His actions match His morals. But why wouldn't they?

---

I can't really explain this, as it is related to not knowing God's ways, so how about you take a look at this?

---

Though I may not agree with your choices, I do respect them.

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

Sorry for taking so long to reply, I was gone all weekend. Considering we are idiots compared to God, if His plan is "very intelligent", then how can we (being idiots) truly understand what His plan is? Take for example a politician trying to explain a new economic plan to someone who has no idea what he is talking about, the plan may be very intelligent, but the guy who's having it explained to him won't understand it because he doesn't have the intelligence. So how can a very intelligent plan make sense to everyone if people are too stupid or ignorant to understand it? Yes, He does. Though it's been so long, I've forgotten exacly what we were talking about... Ok, I've done my best to persuade you, but I can't, so belive as you wish (though I still disagree entirely).

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

Thanks for taking over Cynic1, your doing a much better job than I could have. Keep it up.

---

"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis