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Author Topic:   Why do Christians make God out to be dumb?
cduben
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 259 (144569)
09-24-2004 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by portmaster1000
09-15-2004 4:45 PM


Re: Simple question
In short, my answer to the question is no. Here's why.
1. When God created man, He planted in him a desire to do good. The sin nature was at that time nonexistant. However, that desire was planted and watered solely by God.
2. When man first sinned, he separated himself from God and was bound to a sin nature. This was passed down to us. Before you are regenerated, you have no choice but to do evil. The path to sin is the only option. But the believer is reconciled to God through the punishment of Jesus, and he is left with two options: the path to sin and the path to good. Yet even at this point, no good is possible without God's Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by portmaster1000, posted 09-15-2004 4:45 PM portmaster1000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by portmaster1000, posted 09-27-2004 3:03 PM cduben has replied
 Message 210 by almeyda, posted 10-09-2004 6:24 AM cduben has not replied

cduben
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 259 (145333)
09-28-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by portmaster1000
09-27-2004 3:03 PM


Re: Simple question
These two statements seem contradictory to me. If orginal man did not have sin in his nature how could he have ever sinned for the first time?
I understand your confusion. I'll try to explain this as best I can.
God did not bring evil into the world. However, He gave us free will to decide between good and evil.
By "sin nature", I mean slavery to sin. Before Adam had the sin nature, he still had a choice; however, he could just as easily have chosen not to sin. Without free will, we would have no ability to do right or wrong. Without free will, there is no right and wrong.
When God created Adam, he gave him the choice to do right or wrong. Yes, God could have not put the forbidden tree in the garden. But then Adam would have nothing to resist; nothing to win against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by portmaster1000, posted 09-27-2004 3:03 PM portmaster1000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-28-2004 11:07 AM cduben has replied
 Message 187 by portmaster1000, posted 09-28-2004 1:42 PM cduben has not replied
 Message 204 by doctrbill, posted 10-02-2004 4:22 PM cduben has not replied

cduben
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 259 (146572)
10-01-2004 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dan Carroll
09-28-2004 11:07 AM


Re: Simple questione
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) writes:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The verse you mentioned is part of a larger passage that discusses the sovereignty of God. The message is that God uses evil people or evil circumstances to accomplish His will. (An example of this is God using the Chaldeans to punish His people, who had turned from Him.)
But it really doesn't say that God created evil. Furthermore, the Bible contains no record of God doing such a thing.
This message has been edited by cduben, 10-01-2004 05:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-28-2004 11:07 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-01-2004 5:35 PM cduben has replied

cduben
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 259 (146585)
10-01-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Dan Carroll
10-01-2004 5:35 PM


Re: Simple questione
No, not necessarily. Evil is alternately translated as calamity, disaster, and woe. Back when the KJV was written, evil had a much broader meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-01-2004 5:35 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-01-2004 6:16 PM cduben has replied
 Message 194 by Asgara, posted 10-01-2004 6:22 PM cduben has not replied

cduben
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 259 (146598)
10-01-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Dan Carroll
10-01-2004 6:16 PM


Re: Simple questione
Alternately translated by whom?
I thought Bible was inerrant. Are we saying mistranslations creeped in, now?
Hello?
cduben writes:
Back when the KJV was written, evil had a much broader meaning.
Uh...okay. I'm not sure I can make it any clearer than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-01-2004 6:16 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-01-2004 6:33 PM cduben has replied

cduben
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 259 (146607)
10-01-2004 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Dan Carroll
10-01-2004 6:33 PM


Re: Simple questione
Rrgh. This is taxing on my sanity.
Don't you understand what I'm saying? The word "evil" had a much broader meaning 400 years ago than it does now. The KJV translation, which you used, uses the word "evil", which was correct in that time. But all of the modern translations use a word that is more accurate in today's English language. There's no error anywhere in this.
From whence cometh that evil smell?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-01-2004 6:33 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2004 6:48 PM cduben has replied

cduben
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 259 (146633)
10-01-2004 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by crashfrog
10-01-2004 6:48 PM


The recommended course of action, at that point, is to support your argument with sources, not repeat your claims.
  • I stated my argument (that "evil" in its archaic form had a much broader meaning).
  • I listed several common modern translations of the same Hebrew word.
  • I gave an example of a different meaning of the word, which was valid when the KJV was written.
So what more is this guy asking for?
Well, anyway, I hope portmaster1000 has got an adequate answer to his original question by now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2004 6:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by AdminNosy, posted 10-01-2004 9:13 PM cduben has replied
 Message 201 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2004 9:21 PM cduben has not replied
 Message 205 by portmaster1000, posted 10-02-2004 4:34 PM cduben has not replied

cduben
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 259 (146641)
10-01-2004 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by AdminNosy
10-01-2004 9:13 PM


Re: Back up
OK, here we go. I've listed some key Bible verses in which the word "evil" is used to mean something other than ethically wrong.
Genesis 37:2 writes:
These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph, being seventeen years old, was feeding the flock with his brethren; and the lad was with the sons of Bilhah, and with the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives: and Joseph brought unto his father their evil report.
Genesis 44:34 writes:
For how shall I go up to my father, and the lad be not with me? lest peradventure I see the evil that shall come on my father.
Genesis 47:9 writes:
And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage are an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage.
Numbers 20:5 writes:
And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.
Deuteronomy 7:15 writes:
And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.
Deuteronomy 17:1 writes:
Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Deuteronomy 31:17 writes:
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
All from the King James Version.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by AdminNosy, posted 10-01-2004 9:13 PM AdminNosy has not replied

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