Why do Christians make God out to be dumb?

Crashfrog,Have you ever read Surprised by Joy by C.S. Lewis? It's a pretty good book.Because that "change" is one of a constant approach to truth. I'd rather be almost right, and getting right-er, than be eternally and unchangingly wrong.If we're right we will be eternally right, if not then we won't be eternally wrong, only for a little while.SmittyPS how do you do the quote thingy in the box. I'm sorry Crashfrog but i didn't know how to do it for this post.[This message has been edited by Smitty500, 02-07-2004]

It's not hell I'm talking about remember - it's understanding of scripture. If someone writes a silly unthoughtful topic then I'm not going to go easy on that person. ( I've been here too long to suffer such things) Ofcourse I agree!!! But they don't ask in this way, they prefer hard of heart unbelief, so like Jesus said, " my sheep hear my voice "I'm only looking at what the NT says remember! if message 1 says we make out God to be dumb, then what the hell are they doing by saying there is no significance to Christ suffering.Message 1. is simply opinionated posting - my logic tells me that. If someone tries to make me look foolish like this then obviously I'm going to fight back. I'm not going to swallow trashy topics, or the "Bible according to unbelievers" without retorting. If they are saying I make my God out to be dumb then they know exactly what they're doing - flame throwing, and they're gonna take some posts of disagreement.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-08-2004]

You can learn how to do cool things by clicking on the #UBB Code is On link to the left of the page when you are creating a message.You can also learn what a person did in a message by clicking edit for that message. You can't, of course, edit it but you can see what they wrote.meanwhile to make a quote
[ qs ] text to put in box [ /qs ]but leave the spaces out next to the brackets. That will produce:

thanx

Willow "IF the Bible is/contains the word of God then why did He include the events you referenced ?You cannot have it both ways, the Bible being His word in order to point out seemingly evil things and then the Bible not being His word when it might place a claim on your life."As usual I am having difficulty understanding you Willow. I am not sure what you mean by the above statement, but for the record I do not belive any of what the Bible says is the word of God.Willow "You need to specifically pick something that you think that God has done something evil."Is this a request for passages in which God does something "evil" in the Bible? If so I would direct you to GE 1:29, Lev 25:44-46, mark 16:17, Deu 21:18-21, Num chapter 31, and Ez 9:4-6 as a few that I can gather together right now.Willow "Mary didn't grasp the reality of exactly who her Son was. When He started His ministry they had completely forgotten that Jesus was here to go about His Father's business."You are asserting that by the time Jesus started his ministry, Mary and Joseph forgot the whole virgin birth, angel visistation thing? As well as the countless other visits from angels? That is your stance, really? There is probably not a person in the USA over the age of 10 that has forgotten that Mary suppossedly gave birth as a virgin, yet you would like to argue that Mary herself forgot this fact?all I can say is....WOW.

Sorry, The Revenge of Reason could you tell me where did you read about Mary didn't grasp or forgot all about the angels visits?
I also want to learn more about Bible.
Thank you in advance.

Pertaining to the issues of percieved evil originating from God via scriptural verses is a subject that has been recently debated in my topic "Message of the Bible".If you initiate topic drift then I will follow - it is your topic.I really do not want to stray from the subject of your topic ROR. I will say though, that whatever God does, IF He is....is righteous.If you want to drift in this area then you need to pick ONE incident that you feel God and His actions are indefensible. When you do this we can now debate.Next issue :ROR, you have made an obvious mistake. I believe once I point it out you will want to correct what you have said.I agree, nobody over 10 years old could possibly forget that Mary allegedly gave birth as a virgin. How could they forget when the claim is written in a book that is the all-time best seller ?I honestly do not believe you intended this point to be understood the way it reads. No problem, I will disregard until you correct it.Mary didn't forget that she was a virgin who birthed a child, she just didn't believe that the child she had was literally and exactly what the angel told her.When Jesus told her that He had to be about His Father's business, the implication is "did you forget ?"Mary forgot or simply did not believe what manner of Son she had.People forget that the doctrine of the Incarnation says that Jesus is BOTH man and God in all expressions at the same time. Jesus is not part man and part God, He was both man and God at all times.Jesus wasn't this white robed freak floating three inches off the ground. He went to the bathroom behind bushes and needed to wash His feet.Mary didn't understand her Son, all she cared about was her little boy just like any other Jewish mother.Don't get down on Mary for how the gospels portray her - Jesus's own disciples didn't believe who He was until after the Resurrection. Even the established religious community of the time (the Pharisees) rejected the most spiritual Man of all time.When the gospels record that Christ's family thought He was crazy, this is the authors being honest. Why would the gospel writers make this up if it wasn't true ?

mike the wiz: Hrmph. Jesus' parables are not that hard to understand, unless you're really dumb perhaps. You don't need to be a believer to understand what Jesus is talking about. And if you are not able to grasp it, you can always look it up on a website run by more intelligent Christians. *grins*I'm new to this board. Have been reading it for a number of days and eventually decided to join in. I am an agnostic. I am interested in all religions, I believe there may be a God, but I don't think we can know Him.

In reply to crashfrog saying God could have just said "let there be no gap", this is true, God could have done it that way. The reason He didn't however is because this was the only way He could show His love for us."For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23If our sins are not forgiven then we will burn eternally in Hell, that is the death this verse referes to. Without Jesus in the OT, animals had to be sacrificed everytime a person sinned, so that the animal could take the place of the human. Jesus ended the need for animal sacrifices by giving His own life to forgive all sins, past, present and future. It was not a human sacrifice, it was a God sacrifice. God loved us enough to forsake His son, Himself so that we could live eternally in Jesus Christ our Lord. God's salvation a free gift to us, whether you choose to accept it or not is up to you. God is great and merciful, He taught us how to love through the sacrifice of Christ.

How the hell does that make any sense?If God wanted to show his love for us, there's four airplanes I can think of that he could have done something about, way back in September 2001.Alternatively he could do what I do to my wife to show her I love her - tell her every day. Folks would be a little more inclined to believe in a loving God if he'd return some phone calls. Sure. What's the process of forgivness? Haven't you ever forgiven someone? I'm sure you must have, but which of these situations was it most like?A: "Dude, my bad." "Hey, no problem, forget about it."B: "Dude, my bad." "Well, we got a problem. I can't forgive you until I send my son over there for you to crucify."Forgiveness is easy. You just forgive. Sacrifice isn't a part of that.You haven't answered a one of my questions. You've just repeated the claptrap that lead me to ask them in the first place.

"If God wanted to show his love for us, there's four airplanes I can think of that he could have done something about, way back in September 2001."God designed us to have free will, so that we could make moral choices. Since we are not "programmed" to do only good, we have both the ability for good and the possibility of evil. If one chooses evil, there will be consequences for that evil.
Just because God made us with the ability to choose, does not make Him responsible for the actions we take. For example, imagine God made this big road with all these exits. God has told us to drive on the big road and never get off at any of the exits. Now we get on the road - and some choose to get off of it at the exits. God is not responsible for those people getting off the road, He even told them not to. Those people are responsible for their actions.
I can't tell you why God allowed the 9-11 attacks to happen because no one is able to fully understand God's ways, and if we could then God would be no larger than our own finite minds.
Also, don't try saying something like "What about all of the innocent people killed in the towers?" either. Though it is sad that they died, they weren't innocent. Has there ever been anyone other than Christ who was completely without sin? No. we are all guilty of sin, therefore not one single person can ever be innocent."Alternatively he could do what I do to my wife to show her I love her - tell her every day. Folks would be a little more inclined to believe in a loving God if he'd return some phone calls."(I apologize for my previous statment in which I said "only", it should have been "best" and there are also more reason than just that.) Sure, God could say to us everyday in a loud, booming voice "I love you", but that's not how God works. God doesn't want us to believe in Him because we have poof of His existence, He wants us to belive because of faith. Besides, He tells us He loves us everyday anyways, you just don't know its God because you have dismissed these things as normal. For example, look at your wife, your job, your friends, your family, every single one of your possessions. You may think you got it all because of your own hard work, but God gave it to you because He loves you and wants you to be happy. On the other hand, happiness is possible without all of that, a homeless person who loves God could be far more happy than anyone with money who doesn't love God.

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"Forgiveness is easy. You just forgive. Sacrifice isn't a part of that."The main problem here is that you are viewing the process of sin and forgiveness differently than how God views it. As I stated previously, all people are sinners. So if someone sins against you, you can easily forgive them without need for a sacrifice because you're both sinners, and sin (being part of both of you) can't separate you. However, God is pure and holy, sin is evil, the two can't fit together. So, in order for us to be with God, our sin has to be taken from us. That was done by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This is an old example, but it still works: Imagine a deep valley that goes down into Hell, you on one side, God on the other. If you try to jump the gorge, you'll fall into Hell. When God sent Jesus into the world to be crucified, Jesus became a bridge across the gorge to God. So if you don't belive in Jesus, you can't get to God.I hope that I have now answered at least one of your questions.[This message has been edited by SoulFire, 04-05-2004]

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Only DNA is known to produce DNA. No chemical interaction of molecules has even come close to producing this ultra-complex code which is so essential to all known life.

Imagine you have a pool filled with alligators. No fence, but the alligators can't get out. You can set up signs and yell out "don't come near the alligators" until you're blue in the face, but if some guy wanders into the pool and gets eaten by the alligators, you're still responsible.You are responsible for the choices of others if you fail to take reasonable precautions in regards to dangerous situations you're in control of. But that is how love works. Bad analogy. Bridges work whether you believe in them or not.I still don't understand, because you haven't explained, why God, who is superior to all rules, has to follow the "rules" about sin that means he can't forgive us without blood sacrifice. Are you saying that I can do something that God can't do - that is, forgive your trespasses against me without the need for blood?

Imagine you have a pool filled with alligators. No fence, but the alligators can't get out. You can set up signs and yell out "don't come near the alligators" until you're blue in the face, but if some guy wanders into the pool and gets eaten by the alligators, you're still responsible.If the guy "wandered" into the pool knowing that it was dangerous, then it was his choice to do so, and so how am I responsible for his stupid mistake? I admit that if it happened by accident that the guy fell in, then it would be my fault, however, people do not accidently sin (though they may not do it willingly either).

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But that is how love works.Being only 15, I can't claim to know what the love you are speaking of is like. Though one thing I can be sure of is that different kinds of love exist, do you love your brother, sister, mother or father in the same way that you love your wife? I doubt it. God's nature is love EDITED: (and saying "God can do absolutely anything" IS true (previously said this was not true), which makes me NOT reconsider my previous statements about Him being able to abolish sin by simply saying "let there be no gap") one thing that He can do but doesn't want to is go against His own nature. God's love is perfect, it is far greater than any love we could give to or recieve from any human. Also, remember that actions speak louder than words. This in mind, I think that you could tell someone you love them, but if you don't act accordingly and relate to the person as though you never said you loved them, they probably won't believe you. Again, the death of Christ comes into play.

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Bad analogy. Bridges work whether you believe in them or not.Imagine this, you need to cross a massive valley, and infront of you is an, old rotten rope bridge. There is also a person there who says that there is a better bridge 500,000 miles to the left or right, you don't know which and the only way you can find it is if they lead the way. They are willing to show you the exact spot the bridge is at, but if you take the old bridge or go off on you're own to find the better one, you're sure to eventually fall off the edge and die (though you can return to the person at anytime before this). The bridge will work whether you believe it exists or not, but the question is, are you willing to let the person lead you 500,000 miles to a bridge you can't be sure is even there? Now imagine that God is on the other side of the valley (the side you need to get to), and the person willing to lead you is Jesus (who is the only way to get to the Father, God).I hope this is a better analogy than the first, but if not I'll be more than willing to come up with others.

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Are you saying that I can do something that God can't do - that is, forgive your trespasses against me without the need for blood?As I said in my last post, us forgiving sin is entirely different from God forgiving sin. God is pure, and sin cannot co-exist with him, so we need to have our sins removed from us before we can be with Him. While on the other hand, all humans have sin within them, so sin is not a factor in separating humans and keeping them from continuing their relationships with each other. This is also affected by my new knowledge of God and His ways, mainly being that there are a very small number of things that He can't do (such as go against His own nature). Sorry for any previous confusion, as well as any new confusion that this is sure to produce.[This message has been edited by SoulFire, 04-06-2004][This message has been edited by SoulFire, 04-06-2004]

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"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

You're responsible because it's reasonable to expect you to predict that someone could injure themselves because of your possession. Therefor your failure to take all reasonable precautions to prevent that - and a fence in this case is a pretty reasonable precaution - represents negligence. You're responsible because you were negligent. No, but one of the things that characterizes love in all its forms is that it should be communicated. It's not love if you hide it away; it's cowardice and conceit.God doesn't get to have a special kind of "God-love" that means he doesn't have to communicate it or act on it in any way. And what I simply don't understand is why that "sin-ectomy" requires sacrificial blood. God could simply wave his hand and those sins would be gone, because that's within God's power. You've told me, over and over again, how sin needs to be taken care of. Fine, I get it. What I can't seem to get you to tell me is why the only way to do that is to kill the Son of Man.I'm willing to believe that there are some things God can't do. I just don't see why this is one of them.

Before I begin, please excuse me for all of my past mistakes, because I too am learning about this subject as I do some research to answer your questions.
That said, one mistake I have made is saying there was some things He was uncapable of doing. Sorry again for any confusion this may have accidentaly caused you.

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...your failure to take all reasonable precautions to prevent that - and a fence in this case is a pretty reasonable precaution - represents negligence."By building a fence around the pool, I would only be making it harder for people to get into the pool (if they decided thats what they wanted to do) they could just climb it and hop in. Technically, God did give us a fence (and this stems from nobody sinning accidently), God gave us a sence of morals (a climbable fence) that prevents us from accidently doing something we don't want to do (just as the fence would prevent people from accidently falling into the pool), but still allows us to do it if we choose to.If this is an unclimbable fence we're talking about, such as an electric fence, then it would be completely stopping people from doing what they want to do (if they feel like jumping in with the alligators). This would be the same as God taking away our free will and ability to make choices, which is not what He wants for us, or what He created us to be like.

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...one of the things that characterizes love in all its forms is that it should be communicated.

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God doesn't get to have a special kind of "God-love" that means he doesn't have to communicate it or act on it in any way.God doesn't have a special "God-love", and He does communicate his love, I said this before when I said, "look at your wife, your job, your friends, your family, every single one of your possessions. You may think you got it all because of your own hard work, but God gave it to you because He loves you and wants you to be happy." God acts differently than you or I, so you have to look at things differently inorder to see God's display of His love.

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You've told me, over and over again, how sin needs to be taken care of. Fine, I get it. What I can't seem to get you to tell me is why the only way to do that is to kill the Son of Man.Again, another stupid mistake I made. The sacrificing of Jesus Christ was not the only way for God to atone for our sins, but it is the way He chose. I have no way of knowing why He did this, and nobody else can tell you, this is no longer a question of "Why COULDN'T God forgive our sin without a blood sacrifice," but a question of "Why DIDN'T God forgive our sin without a blood sacrifice." Again, no one can explain the way God works, so I would fail miserably if I tried to explain it to you.Sorry again for leading you to a couple of dead ends due to my lack of knowledge, but thanks for providing me with an oppurtunity to widen my own understanding of all of this.

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"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis