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Author Topic:   Noah's Ark
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 302 (29056)
01-13-2003 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by windwip
01-12-2003 12:21 AM


The Earth could have been covered by the ocean prior to the major mountain uplifts. In the Biblical creationist scenario we believe the mountain building (as it is called mainstream) and continental drift occurred during the flood. Hence at some point of the flood year there could have been a 100% covering.
Mainstream science has discovered unambiguous evidence of an 80%+ covering during the Cretceous stage (of the flood, as we would say). This estimate is a minimum number because where did the sediment for the next layering above the Cretaceous come from? The highlands of course, eroding away the evidecne of a more complete coverage. So there may be an incomplete record of marine coverage because it has been partly eroded away. In fact it has to be the case that the 80% estimate is a minimum. The last parts of the Earth to be covered (the mountains of that time) would only have recieved a sprinkling. There is absolutely no problem in getting the existing water to cover the entire Earth of that time.
Mainstream the largest sea-level changes are explained as due to the tectonic movements that occurred suring continetnal drift and 'sea-floor spreading'. Glacial formation/melting results in lower sea-level changes. So for creaitonists we are left having to explain how to get rapid tectonic effects. We believe that radiodecay was accelerated releasing a lot of heat and sending the continental and sea-floor plates into a runaway state. this has been simulated on computer by a mainstream expert who also happens to believe the flood was a recent event. This runaway effect can yield plate velocities sufficent to generate the observed break-up of Pangea over a matter of years.
We believe that mainstream geology has misread the rocks because it ignored the declaration of Scripture. The geological-column was generated during the catastrophic Genesis Flood, not over eons of time in this scenario.
PS: there are only 2400 Linnean families of land animals that would have been on Noahs ark. Creationists believe that post-flood speciation these 2400 land families or kinds generated the tens of thousands of land species.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-13-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by windwip, posted 01-12-2003 12:21 AM windwip has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Brad McFall, posted 01-13-2003 11:00 PM Tranquility Base has not replied
 Message 6 by wj, posted 01-14-2003 2:04 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 302 (29145)
01-14-2003 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by wj
01-14-2003 2:04 AM


wj
TB, how can you sit there and write that stuff with a straight face? You postulate scenarios which have been debunked time and time again.
Using your approach you could debunk any new emerging theory of science, some of which turn out to be correct. New approaches always have holes. The creationist scenario has more parsimonous aspects than holes IMO.
Accelerated radioactive decay? Enough heat to drive runaway subduction and boil all of the oceans dry. But you conveniently omit this little detail in your storytelling, despite the fact that it has been presented to you repeatedly.
In an introductory 3 paragraph summary I felt quite justified in presenting the positive aspects of the scenario. Three or four potential solutions to the excess heat problem have been proposed by the RATE group and others:
1. Superheated jets of steam at underwater rift valleys traversing the globe transported water (and heat) to escape velocity. Comets (mostly ice) may represent this catastrophic event.
2. The expansion of the universe may still have been proceeding at a rapid pace during the time of the flood (using the Humphreys cosmology) and the heat was absorbed by spatial expansion (see the RATE book for calcs).
3. Accelerated radiodecay, continental drift, and flood associated events occurred gradually over hundreds of years pre- and post- the primary flood event and people survived in regions of low radioisotope abundance. This is my wacky theory which may or may not be easily debunked.
And if your fantasised accelerated radioactive decay made some rocks appear to be 4 billion years old, why don't all rocks appear this age?
That's easily explained and emerges natrually from the sceanrio for exactly the same reasons that all rocks on Earth aren't 4.5 billion years old in the mainstream scenario. Rocks are time-reset by liquificaiton and the clock starts from the time of solidificaiton. Hence rocks that became solidified half way through the flood record display half of the decay that rocks solidified at the beginning of the flood display. Precisely how the mainstream scheme works.
Out of curiousity, how does your flood fantasy cope with the Great Dividing Range in Australia? There isn't enough ice to melt and cover them. They are not associated with any active tectonic plate collisions. So, how were they covered and subsequently uplifted?
I'd have to do some research to discover when the uplift occurred mainstream. Whatever the case the GD range got uplifted at some point during the history of this planet! Our scenario probably puts a constraint of post-Cretacous. I'll check it out. Regardless of the mechanims of uplift, if the rocks record the uplift occurred post-Cretacous there is no problem. (I'm assuming here that the 100% coverage occured at the Cretacous). From my mainstream reading I see mto recall that most mountain ranges only survive for about 100 million years so I have presumed that most of our current mountain ranges are younger than 100 million years mainstream (not far off from the KT boundary age of 66 My).
In your answer, please also maintain consistency with the postflood migration of the 18 pairs of marsupial and monotreme ancestors directly to Australasia without leaving any evidence of their journey from the middle east.
We agree with the mainstream expectation that there would be almost no fossiliztion on land during (let's be generous) the 1000 years it took them to get to Australia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by wj, posted 01-14-2003 2:04 AM wj has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Coragyps, posted 01-14-2003 10:13 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 302 (29147)
01-14-2003 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Believer
01-14-2003 8:30 PM


That's good stuff believer.
The only thing I can add is that the ground water aspect is not strictly necessary. If we have catastrophic tectonics you cannot avoid vast boil-off of seawater near the rift valleys and thus lots of rain via condensation.
On the other hand Scripture describes 'fountains' and the 'windows of the heavans' as sources of course so we have to allow for the possibility of subteranean water and some sort of canopy collapse. But the 'windows of the heavens' could be interpreted as condensing rift-valley steam and the fountains of the deep could be huge plumes of magma deep in the mantle that may be driving plate tectonics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Believer, posted 01-14-2003 8:30 PM Believer has not replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 302 (29152)
01-14-2003 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Coragyps
01-14-2003 10:13 PM


Coragyps
The Traps
Our model would predict variation in 'age' with presuamably the inner most layers being younger due to cooling proceeding from the outside to the inside.
On the other hand solidificaiton may occur rapidly even on our flood timescale with cooling to room temperature nevertheless taking a long time. The traps are undoubtedly a very good test bed of the theory, I'll agree.
Where is the data showing that the date is so homogeneous? I have seen tables of data showing far more inhomogenity in far thinner flows.
Flood comets
Comets do regualraly interact with our orbit and orbital mechanics does not require them to interact with the Earth itself. Of course in our sceanrio we have dozens of solar orbits for encounters with the giant planets to skew things.
And we all know that the Ort cloud has no actual evidecne and had to be proposed simply becasue the comets should not still be around in your scenario.
Solar wind may have altered the deuterium/hydrogen ratio and I have no idea how much atmospheric hating would occur from the jets but it is certainaly a help to the model to expel heat from the planet.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-14-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Coragyps, posted 01-14-2003 10:13 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Coragyps, posted 01-15-2003 10:41 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 302 (29215)
01-15-2003 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Coragyps
01-15-2003 10:41 AM


Coragyps
It would be nice to know what part(s) of the traps that very consistent result came from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Coragyps, posted 01-15-2003 10:41 AM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Coragyps, posted 01-15-2003 7:13 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 302 (29217)
01-15-2003 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by vangogh
01-15-2003 7:54 AM


I agree vangogh.
Having said that I am a scientist so it's my job to do science. What I am finding more an more is that the Bible is enabling us to understand a lot of the strange things about our planet in ways quite differnet from mainstream science and yet we use the same data. I think as Christian creationists we are starting to understand why, as well as how, God did some of the things he did to this planet. Our God is a God that uses physical processes. Water to wash the Earth, blood to cleanse sin (in the OT) and Jesus who came in biological flesh. But I agree we need to be careful not to go overboard.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-15-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by vangogh, posted 01-15-2003 7:54 AM vangogh has not replied

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