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Author Topic:   Noah's Ark
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 187 of 302 (232464)
08-11-2005 11:21 PM


Floodies and the natural world
Here's what I love about you Floodies. You go through incredible lengths of bending and twisting ideas and facts to fit around one story and...
It's plagerized!
You want the Bible to be literally true, but they original writers pillaged the story of Noah and the Flood from the Babylonians!
The Bible is not "literally" true. It's not supposed to be!
The story of Noah is not about facts, it's about Truth. That's "Truth" with a capital T. Jesus told parables, stories which had a specific message to impart. We are not supposed to take those stories on face value, we are supposed to take the message.
The water in Noah's flood is not the water that comes from your sink. It's WATER the symbol. The arc is not a boat, it's a symbol. This is not a history lesson, it's a lesson in morality, in faith, in obedience.
When you take the lessons of the Bible and make them into "facts" you run into two very big problems.
1) You completely lose the whole point of the story!!! You cheapen the message, changing your religeon into nothing more than a history class.
-and-
2) You run the risk of being proven wrong. That's endangers your entire believe system.
The very first post of this string suggests that the great flood happened about 2000 years ago.
So, around the time of Jesus' birth (give or take 100 years), there were exactly what? 6 people on Earth total? Just Noah and his family.
Where did everyone else come from? Everyone in the entire world is descended from Noah in the last 2000 years? All the Chinese, and the Native Americans, the Africans, the Eskimos, the Romans? The Greeks?
Exactly how many kids did Noah and his wife have? How many of them were either sleeping with their sisters or nieces?
When you hang your hat on a "fact" you better be sure it can take the weight of your hat

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Lysimachus, posted 08-13-2005 11:36 AM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 196 of 302 (232998)
08-13-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Lysimachus
08-13-2005 11:36 AM


Re: Floodies and the natural world
Quote:
"We believe it was the other way around, and that these stories that come from the Babylonians and Assyrians only HELP to testify to the validity of scripture. I'm sorry, but I can't accept these wild assumptions that the Bible writers pillaged the stories from them. Sounds far fetched and out of line."
Your reasoning here is flawed. It sounds out of line to you because in your timeline the writers of the Bible came first. However, there are mountains of evidence to dispute this. When we point to our evidence the only thing you have to counter it is "Well, it says this in this book I've got."
You've also misunderstood my original post. Yes, the Old Testament doesn't refer to anything within it's pages as being anything other than literal truth and the New Testament does use that tool. That does not "prove" that the Old Testament is fact, or that God was gracious enough to let us in on the secret.
In a later post, you write that "There is nothing to querrel about".
If you want to believe in the Flood. No one will try to stop you. If you want to teach the Flood as fact in your Temples / Churches / Mosques more power to you.
When you try to bring those beliefs into our schools, be ready to fight.
Further, here are some contradictions in the Bible that I hope you can explain:
Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor
Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)
Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them
Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)
Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)
Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)
Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father
Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.
Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)
When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Lysimachus, posted 08-13-2005 11:36 AM Lysimachus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Lysimachus, posted 09-17-2005 1:14 AM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 202 of 302 (244348)
09-17-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Lysimachus
09-17-2005 1:14 AM


Re: Floodies and the natural world
Thou salt not commit murder....unless otherwise commanded by God Himself
God can't do his own dirty work? He doesn't have a host of angels that he can dispatch? He can't turn people into salt? Why would he give this rule only to void it?
Also, who are you to say that I don't hear God command me to kill? I hear him command me to kill all people who's first names begin with the letter C. Since I've got God's say so, I guess it's all right.
Thou shalt not steal...unless otherwise commanded to do so by God Himself.
God can't simply create or destroy? If the egyptians have a cow and God wants me to have it, can't he just create a cow out of nothingness in my backyard and vanish the Egyptians' cow?
I hear God tell me to steal all the stuff I can from people who's first names begin with the letter J...
The Ark of the Covenant was in honor and glory of God, not any other God.
So, you accept that there are in fact other Gods?
by his works he is justified, and not by faith only.
Yet if you live a horrible life and recant on your deathbed, you're on the expressway to Heaven.
if you would look up the original Hebrew words "repent" and "repented" for all the verses and see if they are all the exact same in Hebrew.
Interesting that you bring up original language. My understanding of the old Greek was that the word for maiden (meaning young woman) and the word for virgin were the same, even though the terms have obvious differences.
Just as the above quote is a mistranslation, isn't it reasonable to assume that the "virgin Mary" is the "maiden Mary". After all, she and Joseph had been married how long, and still hadn't consumated the relationship? Did Joseph have ED?
I'm sorry, but I do not read in Exodus 20:5 that the children will be punished for their parents sins. All that is saying is that the children who do likewise as their parents will also be punished.
The children who do likewise or who WOULD do likewise? Children all over the world died as a result of the Flood, no doubt. All of them were wicked and beyond redemption? All the children is Egypt were beyond redemption? Their future was preordained and known, and therefore they lacked free will?
even if these were small glitchy errors on part of the writers
Wait just a minute here. There can be NO small glitchy errors. Every word, every translation, even in versions of the Bible that contradict each other, every single word is in and of itself directly put down by the power of God.
To even suggest that there is a typo calls into question the entire text.
If YEC want to hold the Bible up as some infallible historical document which trumps empirical data and observation, then they can not also claim that there are "small typos".
The YEC have to hold that all Biblical texts (even those that directly contradict each other) and all translations (even those that directly contradict each other) are all 100% correct.
Sorry, but that's your starting point, you can't change it now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Lysimachus, posted 09-17-2005 1:14 AM Lysimachus has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 259 of 302 (270105)
12-16-2005 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by NotSoBlindFaith
12-15-2005 3:52 AM


Paragraphs
Please use paragraphs to seperate your thoughts.
Ok, first, when in my post did I say anything about the firmament? In fact, the bible talks about the “Floodgates of heaven” Opening in the same verse, but as something separate from the “Fountains of the Great Deep” Which where what I was talking about. Second, why is it so absurd to believe catastrophic plate tectonics? You give me no facts to oppose it, except when you state its absurd to think that there could be a catastrophe x10000000000 larger then the south Asian tsunami. Also, if the mountains where not paused up over a short period of time during the flood, please explain to me why there are so many fossils of sea life on top of mountains, including Mt. Everest, the highest mountain in the world. Third, why do you say those culture go back that far? There own histories don’t even have written accounts going back that far. Most of the dating done for the cultures is done under the presupposition that they must go back ten thousand years (Although if one uses the bible, an account of events written by those who where there when it happened, the earth is only about 6,000 years old.) In fact, those cultures written (or drawn, in some cases) histories go back to a point after the flood would have occurred in the biblical time line. Thirdly, it would be quit easy to get the different appearances and languages from those eight people. With proper genetics and isolated descendant families, the genes for all skin colors, eye shapes, hair color, and height would be present, and would eventually create lines of people who have similar features. For example, all varieties of Syrian (also known as teddy bear) hamster in the pet trade today come from THREE individuals, a male and three females, captured in the Syria in 1931. You can look it up of you like. Now, that’s three individuals reproducing for 74 years. Imagine the outcome for 8 individuals in a couple thousand years. Fourth, if I am the one not thinking critically, why are you the one who has reduced themselves to name calling to support there beliefs?
That's an incredibly dense section. Would work better like this:
Ok, first, when in my post did I say anything about the firmament?
In fact, the bible talks about the “Floodgates of heaven” Opening in the same verse, but as something separate from the “Fountains of the Great Deep” Which where what I was talking about.
Second, why is it so absurd to believe catastrophic plate tectonics?
You give me no facts to oppose it, except when you state its absurd to think that there could be a catastrophe x10000000000 larger then the south Asian tsunami.
Also, if the mountains where not paused up over a short period of time during the flood, please explain to me why there are so many fossils of sea life on top of mountains, including Mt. Everest, the highest mountain in the world.
Third, why do you say those culture go back that far?
There own histories don’t even have written accounts going back that far. Most of the dating done for the cultures is done under the presupposition that they must go back ten thousand years (Although if one uses the bible, an account of events written by those who where there when it happened, the earth is only about 6,000 years old.)
In fact, those cultures written (or drawn, in some cases) histories go back to a point after the flood would have occurred in the biblical time line.
Thirdly, it would be quit easy to get the different appearances and languages from those eight people. With proper genetics and isolated descendant families, the genes for all skin colors, eye shapes, hair color, and height would be present, and would eventually create lines of people who have similar features.
For example, all varieties of Syrian (also known as teddy bear) hamster in the pet trade today come from THREE individuals, a male and three females, captured in the Syria in 1931. You can look it up of you like.
Now, that’s three individuals reproducing for 74 years. Imagine the outcome for 8 individuals in a couple thousand years. Fourth, if I am the one not thinking critically, why are you the one who has reduced themselves to name calling to support there beliefs?
By the way, you are wrong in all accounts to varying degrees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 3:52 AM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 290 of 302 (274302)
12-30-2005 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by NotSoBlindFaith
12-30-2005 7:56 PM


Lurker!
Lurking, sorry, saw an interesting post title and backtracked to here.
No, as you said, we have 3,000 years to get a capybara.
Sounds like you are suggesting that the capybara descended from some previous rodent species on the ark. It's an interesting, new position. It sounds like - "I support ToE, but I also believe in the Flood."
If I've got you mispegged, I apologize, but here's my problem with this theory:
According to Floodies, N and S America got seperated from the rest of the world during the floods. Since the Ark let out these 2 squirrels or whatever they were in the Middle East, how did the capybaras get to South America? Why don't we see capybara's in China and Australia? Or if they went the other way, why not in Africa?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-30-2005 7:56 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

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