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Author Topic:   Noah's Ark
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 61 of 302 (205764)
05-06-2005 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Specter
05-06-2005 9:56 AM


Re: Exactly!
oh, i see.
and my signature? i explained it in the signature thread... it's sort of a pun.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Specter, posted 05-06-2005 9:56 AM Specter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 05-06-2005 11:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 302 (205766)
05-06-2005 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by arachnophilia
05-06-2005 11:22 PM


Re: Exactly!
Goes with an old song, something about a Wanderer, just a wanderer.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2005 11:22 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 63 of 302 (205933)
05-07-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
05-06-2005 11:29 PM


Re: Exactly!
more or less... lol

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 05-06-2005 11:29 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Specter, posted 05-09-2005 9:56 AM arachnophilia has replied

Specter
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 302 (206412)
05-09-2005 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by arachnophilia
05-07-2005 7:12 PM


Re: Exactly!
Aren't we getting off topic here? So does the Behemoth exist nad does the Leviathan exist? Answer my simple question. I don't want to wander through life hunting something that isn't there!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by arachnophilia, posted 05-07-2005 7:12 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ramoss, posted 05-09-2005 12:49 PM Specter has not replied
 Message 68 by arachnophilia, posted 05-10-2005 12:32 AM Specter has replied

mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 65 of 302 (206470)
05-09-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Believer
01-15-2003 9:59 PM


believer,
If all living species were descended from a single breeding pair that lived only two thousand years ago, there would be very clear genetic traces of the event visible in the DNA of every animal. If mutations in animals' DNA had only had 2000 years to accumulate, every member of each species would be exremely genetically similar across the entire genome. This is simply because 2000 years of mutation does not produce a large amount of heterozygosity.
This is the opposite of what we find. The diversity in DNA within each species living on the planet today is far too high for us to accept that such a scenario is correct. It would have required mutation rates far higher than anything that has been observed in the natural world.
So, on the basis of the genetic evidence, the entire flood story should be dismissed out of hand. It is not a literal truth.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 66 of 302 (206472)
05-09-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by mick
05-09-2005 12:04 PM


Hi Mick,
Just a small nit pick.
The Flood is said to be about 4400 years ago.
Not that it makes any difference to the reality of the myth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by mick, posted 05-09-2005 12:04 PM mick has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 67 of 302 (206479)
05-09-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Specter
05-09-2005 9:56 AM


Re: Exactly!
Don't know what the Leviathan is supposed to refer to, but the Behemoth is a bull elephant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Specter, posted 05-09-2005 9:56 AM Specter has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 68 of 302 (206639)
05-10-2005 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Specter
05-09-2005 9:56 AM


Re: Exactly!
Aren't we getting off topic here? So does the Behemoth exist nad does the Leviathan exist? Answer my simple question. I don't want to wander through life hunting something that isn't there!
yes, and maybe.
behemoth, an elephant, would have been on the ark.
leviathan, an animal associated with water, especially the sort of the flood, would not.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Specter, posted 05-09-2005 9:56 AM Specter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Specter, posted 05-10-2005 9:50 AM arachnophilia has replied

Specter
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 302 (206722)
05-10-2005 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by arachnophilia
05-10-2005 12:32 AM


More nitpicking again?
Thank you so much for that analysis, Arachnophilia. But before I print this thread to use as a guide for other eyes, would you please have your forummates explain...
"Mick" writes:
This is the opposite of what we find. The diversity in DNA within each species living on the planet today is far too high for us to accept that such a scenario is correct. It would have required mutation rates far higher than anything that has been observed in the natural world.
Excuse me? I thought only 97% of the most diverse creatures' DNA is similar. Don't you think the GTCAs of DNA would get confounded over time quicker than most scientists can observe. And what biologist has lived over 120 years? Can you explain and tell me the genome of a plant that lived in the "Antediluvian" period, if there was such aperiod in Earth's brief history? Please help me out. And by prejudging the motvie of Brian the Machir, he only inputted his comment in to nitpick, and then confirm the mythology of the Flood.
Tell me now, are you creo or evo?
Creo: Is that a Christian attitude?
Evo: And you call yourself ascended from the lower, picky animals...
ONe more thing: The word is not mutated; it's adapted.
This message has been edited by Specter, 05/10/2005 09:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by arachnophilia, posted 05-10-2005 12:32 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 71 by arachnophilia, posted 05-11-2005 6:50 AM Specter has replied
 Message 72 by Brian, posted 05-11-2005 7:27 AM Specter has not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 70 of 302 (206726)
05-10-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Specter
05-10-2005 9:50 AM


Re: More nitpicking again?
I'm not quite sure what your objections are to what Mick said.
Excuse me? I thought only 97% of the most diverse creatures' DNA is similar.
What does this mean? Is it that within a particular species even the most diverse members are 97% similar throughout their genome (a number far too high top be likely)? Or does it mean that the most divergent organisms, say a thermophilic archaebacteria and a giraffe for arguments sake, share 97% similarity in some particularly conserved protein?
Don't you think the GTCAs of DNA would get confounded over time quicker than most scientists can observe.
Nope, in fact there any number of papers where experimenters have followed the variation in genetic sequences over time in bacterial cultures. And even less so in the case of organisms with longer generation times.
Can you explain and tell me the genome of a plant that lived in the "Antediluvian" period, if there was such aperiod in Earth's brief history?
How can this be relevant to Mick's comments on the diversity seen in species living on the planet today? He isn't arguing that we can trace the genetic evolution through from ancestral DNA, simply that the diversity seen within species is too high, based on current rates, to have been generated from only a few breeding pairs in the few thousand years since the flood.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Specter, posted 05-10-2005 9:50 AM Specter has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 71 of 302 (206964)
05-11-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Specter
05-10-2005 9:50 AM


Re: More nitpicking again?
More nitpicking again?
always. for instance, i'm sure this was meant to be directed at me. however, i'll answer the question anyways.
Tell me now, are you creo or evo?
yes.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Specter, posted 05-10-2005 9:50 AM Specter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Specter, posted 05-11-2005 12:34 PM arachnophilia has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 72 of 302 (206974)
05-11-2005 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Specter
05-10-2005 9:50 AM


Re: More nitpicking again?
And by prejudging the motvie of Brian the Machir, he only inputted his comment in to nitpick, and then confirm the mythology of the Flood.
I 'inputted' my comment so Mick would know when the Flood was said to have happened. My nitpick was over the slight error in chronology. As for the Flood being a myth, every science we have has already placed the Flood in the world of fiction.
Brian.

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 Message 69 by Specter, posted 05-10-2005 9:50 AM Specter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by arachnophilia, posted 05-11-2005 8:05 AM Brian has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 73 of 302 (206985)
05-11-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Brian
05-11-2005 7:27 AM


one more nitpick.
every science we have has already placed the Flood in the world of fiction.
i dunno about you, but the nile floods every year. floods happen all the time.
now, a worldwide flood may be a fiction, but that doesn't stop the story from essentially being originally patterned after a true event of much smaller stature. there is evidence that a few thousand years back, several cities in mesopotamia all flooded at about the same time. this could what spawned the story in gilgamesh and the bible.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Brian, posted 05-11-2005 7:27 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Brian, posted 05-11-2005 8:29 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 86 by Dead Parrot, posted 05-11-2005 4:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 74 of 302 (206994)
05-11-2005 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by arachnophilia
05-11-2005 8:05 AM


Re: one more nitpick.
HI Arach,
i dunno about you, but the nile floods every year.
I never flood, not that I have noticed anyway.
floods happen all the time.
Indeed they do, but, in the last 4500 years has a flood covered Mount Everest? Science has placed the face value biblical accounts of the flood into fiction.
I agree that there is good evidence of localised flooding, but the two biblical accounts are not compatible with a local mini-flood.
There have been many efforts to reinterpret the Flood narratives into what may be a reasonable scenario, but they really do not reflect what the Bible is saying. Sure, the flood narratives may be based on an actual local miniflood, and then exaggerated for effect. But what does this do for the credibility of the text? Think about it, if the authors took some relatively trivial flood and exaggerated it greatly, then that opens up the possibility that many other stories are exaggerated, including Jesus' 'sacrifice.'
We both now that the Bible authors have indeed exaggerated much if the Old Testament, and we have no problems with that, but there are people who NEED every syllable in the Bible to be accurate, and the miniflood would be of no use to them.
So, perhaps it was based on a miniflood, but this still means that the Bible version is untrue.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by arachnophilia, posted 05-11-2005 8:05 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by arachnophilia, posted 05-11-2005 8:40 AM Brian has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 75 of 302 (207001)
05-11-2005 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Brian
05-11-2005 8:29 AM


Re: one more nitpick.
I never flood, not that I have noticed anyway.
i used to, but then they banned me from mirc.
but, in the last 4500 years has a flood covered Mount Everest?
does the bible say it did? i can't find this mt everest business in my copy.
I agree that there is good evidence of localised flooding, but the two biblical accounts are not compatible with a local mini-flood.
no, they're not really. but that doesn't mean that's not how the story got started.
But what does this do for the credibility of the text? Think about it, if the authors took some relatively trivial flood and exaggerated it greatly, then that opens up the possibility that many other stories are exaggerated, including Jesus' 'sacrifice.'
when did i pretend the bible was a credible source? i'm pretty i spent some time arguing faith that it was, in fact, not.
So, perhaps it was based on a miniflood, but this still means that the Bible version is untrue.
*shrugs* i'm ok with it if you are.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Brian, posted 05-11-2005 8:29 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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