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Author Topic:   GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 337 (144268)
09-23-2004 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Rei
09-23-2004 7:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Rei
I'm not going to get too much into you and Amlodhi's conversation. . .
Hi Rei,
I (for one) will appreciate all the input you have to offer.
The conversation regarding Prof. Gordon between WT and I was over long ago. There are several posts in this thread where I had to deal with this. WILLOWTREE's final admission in his own words sums it up:
quote:
WT: in Message 157 of 271
Actually, Gordon said "Semites"
Understand, I am not defending Prof. Gordon's thesis. I simply have to monotonously admonish WT for putting the word "Hebrew" into Gordon's mouth.
To Jar:
quote:
Originally posted by jar
Actually, there is no evidence there that the Greek civilization came from the Hebrews.
Your cite says:
Could the fabled Danaan be a reference to the Biblical Hebrew tribe of Dan?
Hi jar,
Also note that even that quote is not from Prof. Gordon. In fact, out of the entire C&P that WT posted, there are only two short squibs that are attributable to Gordon.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Rei, posted 09-23-2004 7:47 PM Rei has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 09-23-2004 9:07 PM Amlodhi has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 287 of 337 (144277)
09-23-2004 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Amlodhi
09-23-2004 8:49 PM


I simply have to monotonously admonish WT for putting the word "Hebrew" into Gordon's mouth.
I understand exactly how you feel. I can't begin to tell you how many times in this thread alone I've had to quote the Bible to show that it simply doesn't say what WT claims it says.
What's sad is that he claims to have copies of both the Bible and Gordon's book. I wonder, if like Scott's infamous 60,000 book library that Scott hasn't read, WT has read either the Bible or Gordon's book?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Amlodhi, posted 09-23-2004 8:49 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Amlodhi, posted 09-23-2004 9:17 PM jar has not replied

Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 337 (144279)
09-23-2004 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
09-23-2004 9:07 PM


I hear you, jar.
Actually, from his last response to me, I'm beginning to think that he doesn't even read his own links that he posts.
C'est la vie,
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 09-23-2004 9:07 PM jar has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 289 of 337 (144285)
09-23-2004 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Cold Foreign Object
09-23-2004 7:54 PM


Re: Linguistic Evidence Supports Heraldry
quote:
In Wales we have places that are derived from Eber (Genesis 10 :21), which said father Eber is the where the word Hebrew comes from.
Wales: Eber: Aber/Aberystwyth/Aberdare etc. etc.
Scotland: Eber: Aberdeen/Aberfoyle/Aberfeldy/Aberdour/Aberargie/Aberuthven.
Of course we know linguistic evidence is summarily rejected by opponents only because there is nothing to gain for their view. But obscure fossil connections seem to be easy for evos to make. This descrepancy in connecting evidence can only be attributed to unwillingness to admit the obvious because Bible veracity is involved.
Remember:
Hebrew is derived from Eber - nobody disputes that. But when Eber is the origin of said locations in G.B. then for reasons stated above it is not recognized.
I think you'll find the reason it isn't recognised in this particular instance is that "aber" is a Celtic term roughly translated to mouth of the river or joining of the waters (i.e. where a river flows into another body of water or the confluence of two or more rivers). If you look on the net you will be overloaded with sites telling you this, but for an authoratitive quote I figured the the official Wales Tourist Board site would be as good as any :
Aber
This denotes the mouth or confluence of a river, or a small stream. It is usually followed by the name of the river.
Example:
Aberystwyth mouth of the river Yswyth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-23-2004 7:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-23-2004 9:41 PM MangyTiger has replied

Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 337 (144287)
09-23-2004 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Cold Foreign Object
09-23-2004 8:21 PM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim
quote:
Originally posted by WT
I also find your evasion of the origins of the Red Hand/Genesis 38 to be great evidence for its validity.
quote:
Message 63 by Amlodhi:
Hello WILLOWTREE,
Since jar appears to be addressing the heraldic symbology, in this post I will outline some of the other points that (so far) I think are deficient regarding this theory.
As it happens, Jar and MangyTiger have been doing an admirable job of addressing the heraldic issue. I have nothing to add to their assessment beyond what I've already mentioned, i.e. that Zerahites are recorded as being in Judah also and there is no indication of any Red-Hand symbolism either there or among the Hyksos, as might be expected if the tenuous Genesis 38 connection had any real merit.
And I, in turn, find your transparently disingenuous tactics to be great evidence for the sorry state of your argument.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-23-2004 8:21 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-23-2004 8:22 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 291 of 337 (144288)
09-23-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by MangyTiger
09-23-2004 9:37 PM


Re: Linguistic Evidence Supports Heraldry
Origin is first.
Your tangential evidence post-dates mine by eons.
You also must ignore the bulk of the evidence I have posted and any honest observer knows why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by MangyTiger, posted 09-23-2004 9:37 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-23-2004 9:45 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 294 by MangyTiger, posted 09-23-2004 10:55 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 292 of 337 (144289)
09-23-2004 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Cold Foreign Object
09-23-2004 9:41 PM


Courtesy Notice

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-23-2004 9:41 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by MangyTiger, posted 09-23-2004 10:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 293 of 337 (144301)
09-23-2004 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Cold Foreign Object
09-23-2004 9:45 PM


Re: Courtesy Notice
Thanks for the notice. As it happens I'd already seen it (and replied )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-23-2004 9:45 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 294 of 337 (144308)
09-23-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Cold Foreign Object
09-23-2004 9:41 PM


Re: Linguistic Evidence Supports Heraldry
"tangential evidence"
So you're telling me that the people who live in the country and speak the language don't know the meaning of a common term in it ?
I'm still working on the rest of the evidence you posted.
I've just had an idea. Even though I haven't checked my theory in advance I'll post my intention and hope I don't get egg all over my face. I have a road atlas of Great Britain which contains an alphebetical listing of place names. I will note down the first 10 and last 10 names (so there's no accusation of me cherry picking names to suit my case). We can then check the location of these 20 places.
The purpose of this. Well if you are right the geographical locations should be spread evenly throughout Britain and not many of them should be at river mouths or confluences (since not that many towns are so located compared to the total number of towns). If I am right then they should predominantly, if not entirely, be located at river mouths or confluences.
Are you up for this challenge WT ? I don't want to go to the effort of doing it if you're just going to say "it proves nothing" or "tangential evidence". I'm making an explicit prediction based on my view of the basis of aber as a place name prefix - are you willing to do the same ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-23-2004 9:41 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-25-2004 1:55 PM MangyTiger has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 295 of 337 (144566)
09-24-2004 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
09-23-2004 7:18 PM


Re: Book Publishing First (rest later)
quote:
you are caught red handed.
How lucky for you. That is sufficient proof that you are directly descended from Zarah and the rightly King of England and a natural born Hebrew.
Don't bother with the stuborn fact that there is no evidence for anything called the Red Hand of Zarah (it was a cord), just tell Lizzy to move over. LOL
ROTFLMAO
Well I would be but that would clearly be inappropriate behaviour for one of such noble and high-born descent as myself.
Perhaps when I move into Buckingham Palace I will assign a flunkey to do it for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 09-23-2004 7:18 PM jar has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 296 of 337 (144642)
09-25-2004 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by MangyTiger
09-23-2004 10:55 PM


Re: Linguistic Evidence Supports Heraldry
Are you up for this challenge WT ? I don't want to go to the effort of doing it if you're just going to say "it proves nothing" or "tangential evidence". I'm making an explicit prediction based on my view of the basis of aber as a place name prefix - are you willing to do the same ?
Hi Mangy:
Listen up.
I believe what you say - believe me.
What I am saying is that the "aber" prefix (as you call it) - that its ORIGIN/FIRST is from Eber.
Your evidence (which I labeled tangential) probably is a bad way to describe it. Your evidence I believe is true but the origin is from Biblical Eber. We both are correct only in my case I have provided the origin and you have provided another facet of the truth which developed much later.
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by MangyTiger, posted 09-23-2004 10:55 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by MangyTiger, posted 09-26-2004 10:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 297 of 337 (144942)
09-26-2004 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Cold Foreign Object
09-25-2004 1:55 PM


Re: Linguistic Evidence Supports Heraldry
Hi WT.
I see what you're saying.
To me it just seems an association based on an assumed phonetic coincidence (do we even know how ancient Celts and Hebrews pronounced things ?). That's not a question I need an answer to BTW - let's not digress into a sidetrack
However, it may be true - I certainly have no way to disprove it. It does seem odd (i.e. unexplained) that if it is based on a personal name then why and how did it become associated predominantly with towns at the mouths or confluences of rivers ?
I did try a bit of digging on the net for the etymology of 'aber' and there are a few references suggesting the original root of it is 'ber' or 'beir' - meaning water - but nothing terribly conclusive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-25-2004 1:55 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 298 of 337 (145282)
09-28-2004 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Cold Foreign Object
09-21-2004 11:51 PM


More on the Red Hand of Ulster
From Message 54 :
Source: "Symbols of Celto-Saxon Heritage" by W.H. Bennett [1976][Rochester, England]
Calcol, a Zarahite (1Chron.2:6) landed in Spain. He founded ZARAgossa.
Calcol departed Iberia/Hiberia/Hibeer/Hebrew/Heber/Eber and made their way to Ireland, which they called "Hibernia". Calcol became king and founded Ulster c.1600 BC. From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord.
Note this sentence - From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord.
In Message 249 I wrote :
quote:
However, I cannot find any reference to a red or scarlet cord ever being on the flag of Ulster. This includes a number of sites dedicated to heraldry and others for flags.
To which WT replies in Message 252 :
quote:
I post evidence and source cite, in response you "refute" by "I cannot find".
Well then let me attempt to refute with "I can find" :
  • Here I can find a picture of a Mills Bomb baseplug (a Mills Bomb was a type of hand grenade) from November 1915 - before the 1920 creation of Northern Ireland. It has the hand and no cord.
  • Here I can find two Ulster stamps from1912-14 both showing the red hand and no cord. Again this predates the creation of Northern Ireland in 1920.
  • Here I can find a reputed portrait of the Earl of Tyrone - late 1500s to early 1600s. Even if it isn't him the lack of a scarlet (or any other) cord is beyond dispute. In addition here is a rubbing of the gravestone of the son of the Earl of Tyrone who died in 1609. It shows the red hand and no cord.
  • Here I can find a site about the (Mac)Geoghegan Coat of Arms and related Heraldry. As well as more than twenty modern pictures of coats of arms containing the red hand and no cord there are two pictures of stone carvings also showing the hand and no cord. There is a better picture of one of the stone carvings here.
I have now provided evidence that in both modern, pre-partition and historic (1609) usage there is no red cord associated with the Red Hand design.
So WILLOWTREE - in your cited book does Bennett provide any evidence to back up "From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord." ? Something like 'as seen in this banner in such and such a museum' or 'as described in ancient book/poem so and so' - in other words actual physical evidence.
If there are no such examples then it is just an unsupported assertion - and pretty much worthless as evidence.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say in advance I don't think there will be any supporting evidence. Think about it. Maybe the ancient symbol included a scarlet cord and for some reason every single user of the red hand symbol has, for some unspecified reason, decided to drop the inclusion of the scarlet cord. Alternatively maybe there never was a scarlet cord, and the only reason anyone thinks it existed is because somebody, for whatever reason, invented the story to suit their own agenda.
Which do you think is the most likely ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-21-2004 11:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 09-28-2004 1:31 AM MangyTiger has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 299 of 337 (145289)
09-28-2004 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by MangyTiger
09-28-2004 1:15 AM


Re: More on the Red Hand of Ulster
Message 75 covers some of the origins of the Red Hand in Irish Heraldry, particularly in the Ulster region. I covers three different versions of how the Red Hand was adopted for part of the Ulster Shield.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by MangyTiger, posted 09-28-2004 1:15 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by MangyTiger, posted 09-29-2004 12:52 AM jar has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 300 of 337 (145290)
09-28-2004 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Cold Foreign Object
09-21-2004 11:51 PM


Bump on Jeremy name claim
Hi WT.
Just to remind you I'm waiting for a reply to Message 246. Although not scientific I did a little more testing on the claim that Jeremy is the most popular masculine name in Ireland. I looked up the male team members of the Irish Olympic and Paralympic teams for Athens, the Irish squad for the 2003 Rugby World Cup and the Tyrone team for the 2003 All-Ireland Football Final.
Number of Jeremies found : zero.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-21-2004 11:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-29-2004 12:57 AM MangyTiger has replied

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