GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS

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Originally posted by Rei

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I'm not going to get too much into you and Amlodhi's conversation. . .

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Hi Rei,I (for one) will appreciate all the input you have to offer.The conversation regarding Prof. Gordon between WT and I was over long ago. There are several posts in this thread where I had to deal with this. WILLOWTREE's final admission in his own words sums it up:

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WT: in Message 157 of 271

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Actually, Gordon said "Semites"

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Understand, I am not defending Prof. Gordon's thesis. I simply have to monotonously admonish WT for putting the word "Hebrew" into Gordon's mouth.To Jar:

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Originally posted by jar

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Actually, there is no evidence there that the Greek civilization came from the Hebrews.

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Your cite says:

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Could the fabled Danaan be a reference to the Biblical Hebrew tribe of Dan?

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Hi jar,Also note that even that quote is not from Prof. Gordon. In fact, out of the entire C&P that WT posted, there are only two short squibs that are attributable to Gordon.Amlodhi

I understand exactly how you feel. I can't begin to tell you how many times in this thread alone I've had to quote the Bible to show that it simply doesn't say what WT claims it says.What's sad is that he claims to have copies of both the Bible and Gordon's book. I wonder, if like Scott's infamous 60,000 book library that Scott hasn't read, WT has read either the Bible or Gordon's book?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I hear you, jar.Actually, from his last response to me, I'm beginning to think that he doesn't even read his own links that he posts.C'est la vie,Amlodhi

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In Wales we have places that are derived from Eber (Genesis 10 :21), which said father Eber is the where the word Hebrew comes from.

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Wales: Eber: Aber/Aberystwyth/Aberdare etc. etc.

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Scotland: Eber: Aberdeen/Aberfoyle/Aberfeldy/Aberdour/Aberargie/Aberuthven.

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Of course we know linguistic evidence is summarily rejected by opponents only because there is nothing to gain for their view. But obscure fossil connections seem to be easy for evos to make. This descrepancy in connecting evidence can only be attributed to unwillingness to admit the obvious because Bible veracity is involved.

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Remember:

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Hebrew is derived from Eber - nobody disputes that. But when Eber is the origin of said locations in G.B. then for reasons stated above it is not recognized.

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I think you'll find the reason it isn't recognised in this particular instance is that "aber" is a Celtic term roughly translated to mouth of the river or joining of the waters (i.e. where a river flows into another body of water or the confluence of two or more rivers). If you look on the net you will be overloaded with sites telling you this, but for an authoratitive quote I figured the the official Wales Tourist Board site would be as good as any :

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Originally posted by WT

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I also find your evasion of the origins of the Red Hand/Genesis 38 to be great evidence for its validity.

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Message 63 by Amlodhi:

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Hello WILLOWTREE,

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Since jar appears to be addressing the heraldic symbology, in this post I will outline some of the other points that (so far) I think are deficient regarding this theory.

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As it happens, Jar and MangyTiger have been doing an admirable job of addressing the heraldic issue. I have nothing to add to their assessment beyond what I've already mentioned, i.e. that Zerahites are recorded as being in Judah also and there is no indication of any Red-Hand symbolism either there or among the Hyksos, as might be expected if the tenuous Genesis 38 connection had any real merit.And I, in turn, find your transparently disingenuous tactics to be great evidence for the sorry state of your argument.Amlodhi

Origin is first.Your tangential evidence post-dates mine by eons.You also must ignore the bulk of the evidence I have posted and any honest observer knows why.

For Mangy Tiger:http://EvC Forum: Show one complete lineage in evolution -->EvC Forum: Show one complete lineage in evolution

Thanks for the notice. As it happens I'd already seen it (and replied )

"tangential evidence"So you're telling me that the people who live in the country and speak the language don't know the meaning of a common term in it ?I'm still working on the rest of the evidence you posted.I've just had an idea. Even though I haven't checked my theory in advance I'll post my intention and hope I don't get egg all over my face. I have a road atlas of Great Britain which contains an alphebetical listing of place names. I will note down the first 10 and last 10 names (so there's no accusation of me cherry picking names to suit my case). We can then check the location of these 20 places.The purpose of this. Well if you are right the geographical locations should be spread evenly throughout Britain and not many of them should be at river mouths or confluences (since not that many towns are so located compared to the total number of towns). If I am right then they should predominantly, if not entirely, be located at river mouths or confluences.Are you up for this challenge WT ? I don't want to go to the effort of doing it if you're just going to say "it proves nothing" or "tangential evidence". I'm making an explicit prediction based on my view of the basis of aber as a place name prefix - are you willing to do the same ?

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you are caught red handed.

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How lucky for you. That is sufficient proof that you are directly descended from Zarah and the rightly King of England and a natural born Hebrew.

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Don't bother with the stuborn fact that there is no evidence for anything called the Red Hand of Zarah (it was a cord), just tell Lizzy to move over. LOL

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ROTFLMAOWell I would be but that would clearly be inappropriate behaviour for one of such noble and high-born descent as myself.Perhaps when I move into Buckingham Palace I will assign a flunkey to do it for me.

Hi Mangy:Listen up.I believe what you say - believe me.What I am saying is that the "aber" prefix (as you call it) - that its ORIGIN/FIRST is from Eber.Your evidence (which I labeled tangential) probably is a bad way to describe it. Your evidence I believe is true but the origin is from Biblical Eber. We both are correct only in my case I have provided the origin and you have provided another facet of the truth which developed much later.WT

Hi WT.I see what you're saying.To me it just seems an association based on an assumed phonetic coincidence (do we even know how ancient Celts and Hebrews pronounced things ?). That's not a question I need an answer to BTW - let's not digress into a sidetrack However, it may be true - I certainly have no way to disprove it. It does seem odd (i.e. unexplained) that if it is based on a personal name then why and how did it become associated predominantly with towns at the mouths or confluences of rivers ?I did try a bit of digging on the net for the etymology of 'aber' and there are a few references suggesting the original root of it is 'ber' or 'beir' - meaning water - but nothing terribly conclusive.

From Message 54 : Note this sentence - From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord.In Message 249 I wrote :

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However, I cannot find any reference to a red or scarlet cord ever being on the flag of Ulster. This includes a number of sites dedicated to heraldry and others for flags.

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To which WT replies in Message 252 :

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I post evidence and source cite, in response you "refute" by "I cannot find".

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Well then let me attempt to refute with "I can find" :

• Here I can find a picture of a Mills Bomb baseplug (a Mills Bomb was a type of hand grenade) from November 1915 - before the 1920 creation of Northern Ireland. It has the hand and no cord.
• Here I can find two Ulster stamps from1912-14 both showing the red hand and no cord. Again this predates the creation of Northern Ireland in 1920.
• Here I can find a reputed portrait of the Earl of Tyrone - late 1500s to early 1600s. Even if it isn't him the lack of a scarlet (or any other) cord is beyond dispute. In addition here is a rubbing of the gravestone of the son of the Earl of Tyrone who died in 1609. It shows the red hand and no cord.
• Here I can find a site about the (Mac)Geoghegan Coat of Arms and related Heraldry. As well as more than twenty modern pictures of coats of arms containing the red hand and no cord there are two pictures of stone carvings also showing the hand and no cord. There is a better picture of one of the stone carvings here.

I have now provided evidence that in both modern, pre-partition and historic (1609) usage there is no red cord associated with the Red Hand design.So WILLOWTREE - in your cited book does Bennett provide any evidence to back up "From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord." ? Something like 'as seen in this banner in such and such a museum' or 'as described in ancient book/poem so and so' - in other words actual physical evidence.If there are no such examples then it is just an unsupported assertion - and pretty much worthless as evidence.I'm going to stick my neck out and say in advance I don't think there will be any supporting evidence. Think about it. Maybe the ancient symbol included a scarlet cord and for some reason every single user of the red hand symbol has, for some unspecified reason, decided to drop the inclusion of the scarlet cord. Alternatively maybe there never was a scarlet cord, and the only reason anyone thinks it existed is because somebody, for whatever reason, invented the story to suit their own agenda.Which do you think is the most likely ?

Message 75 covers some of the origins of the Red Hand in Irish Heraldry, particularly in the Ulster region. I covers three different versions of how the Red Hand was adopted for part of the Ulster Shield.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hi WT.Just to remind you I'm waiting for a reply to Message 246. Although not scientific I did a little more testing on the claim that Jeremy is the most popular masculine name in Ireland. I looked up the male team members of the Irish Olympic and Paralympic teams for Athens, the Irish squad for the 2003 Rugby World Cup and the Tyrone team for the 2003 All-Ireland Football Final.Number of Jeremies found : zero.