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Author Topic:   GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6435 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 301 of 337 (145530)
09-29-2004 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by jar
09-28-2004 1:31 AM


Re: More on the Red Hand of Ulster
Hello again jar.
I'd read your post - and the other related ones you've done - about the Red Hand when you first did them. As far as I was concerned you'd pretty much demolished the Red Hand of Zarah idea on both the Heraldic and Biblical front (a clear sign I've had my God-sense removed ), but WT clearly remains totally underwhelmed by your arguments.
I was hoping to find a really early documented use of the Red Hand (without a cord) to show WT there never has been a cord with it. The best I could come up with from the net was the 1609 tombstone for the son of the Earl of Tyrone.
At least by providing evidence for the lack of a cord from at least the 17th. Century onwards it gives me the opportunity to ask WT what evidence there is for the cord beyond the the unsupported (at least as far as we have seen so far) assertion in the Bennett book.
My expectation is that there will be no physical or documentary evidence. My hope is that this will get WT thinking that maybe the Hebrews in Ireland/Britain/Europe isn't such a done deal as he thinks - the first step towards realising it's a complete crock.
I fear it may be a forlorn hope

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 09-28-2004 1:31 AM jar has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 302 of 337 (145533)
09-29-2004 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by MangyTiger
09-28-2004 1:37 AM


Re: Bump on Jeremy name claim
I haven't forgotten - ASAP.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by MangyTiger, posted 09-28-2004 1:37 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by MangyTiger, posted 09-29-2004 1:00 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 304 by MangyTiger, posted 10-09-2004 5:59 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6435 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 303 of 337 (145534)
09-29-2004 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Cold Foreign Object
09-29-2004 12:57 AM


Re: Bump on Jeremy name claim
No worries - I know you're busy in a number of different threads at the moment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-29-2004 12:57 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6435 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 304 of 337 (148622)
10-09-2004 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Cold Foreign Object
09-29-2004 12:57 AM


Re: Bump on Jeremy name claim
Hi again WT.
Still waiting for evidence that Jeremy is the most common male name in Ireland.
Also waiting for a response to Message 298
So WILLOWTREE - in your cited book does Bennett provide any evidence to back up "From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord." ? Something like 'as seen in this banner in such and such a museum' or 'as described in ancient book/poem so and so' - in other words actual physical evidence.
If there are no such examples then it is just an unsupported assertion - and pretty much worthless as evidence.
I've given proof from at least as far back as 1609 there is no scarlet cord associated with the Red Hand - can you or Bennett provide any evidence that there ever has been ?

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-29-2004 12:57 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-12-2004 12:46 AM MangyTiger has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 305 of 337 (149325)
10-12-2004 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by MangyTiger
10-09-2004 5:59 AM


Re: Bump on Jeremy name claim
Mangy:
Please allow me to withdraw the Irish name claim until I can cite the source.
Your Red Hand nonsense will get nowhere with me until you recognize the posts which make the claims and the evidence therein.
You have decided to play the "where is the evidence" game which is only enacted when the evidence is seen to so decimate what you were previously taught/believed.
All my claims are well evidenced with source cite. You should find a way to view the ensigns of the clans and counties mentioned before you assert that they don't exist.
Of course, Bennett's book has a color picture of most of them but I surmise that this will still not convince you.
Message 54

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by MangyTiger, posted 10-09-2004 5:59 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by MangyTiger, posted 10-12-2004 2:53 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 307 by MangyTiger, posted 10-12-2004 3:24 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6435 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 306 of 337 (149375)
10-12-2004 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Cold Foreign Object
10-12-2004 12:46 AM


Re: Bump on Jeremy name claim
Hi WT.
quote:
Please allow me to withdraw the Irish name claim until I can cite the source.
Of course.
quote:
Your Red Hand nonsense will get nowhere with me until you recognize the posts which make the claims and the evidence therein.
I don't know what you're after here. I recognise your posts that make the claims - specifically Message 54 where you quote from 'Symbols of our Celto-Saxon Heritage' by W.H. Bennett. I'm not disuputing the book makes the claims you say it does - I'm asking what supporting evidence it supplies for those claims.
Just because somebody writes a book that says
From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord.
doesn't make it true. In fact, the example picture you posted (which I believe is a shield bearing the arms of the province of Ulster) doesn't have any sign of a cord at all, which rather lessens it's effectiveness as an illustrative example.
quote:
You have decided to play the "where is the evidence" game which is only enacted when the evidence is seen to so decimate what you were previously taught/believed.
Actually I always play the "where is the evidence" game. My experience of Missouri may be limited to driving through it but I always liked their "show me" motto.
quote:
All my claims are well evidenced with source cite. You should find a way to view the ensigns of the clans and counties mentioned before you assert that they don't exist.
I obviously didn't make myself clear enough despite my best efforts. In Message 298 I wrote
Note this sentence - From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord.
The rest of my post was about this issue - the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord. I'm not claiming that the Red Hand isn't used in many coats of arms - I know it is. I've looked at them. To date, however, in this thread and in the stuff I've looked at evidence for the Scarlet Cord being associated with the Red Hand in heraldry has been nonexistent. If From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord then why is there no contemporary instance of the Red Hand being used along with a Scarlet Cord ? Where is the historical evidence showing it ever has been ?
quote:
Of course, Bennett's book has a color picture of most of them but I surmise that this will still not convince you.
If Bennett's book has solid historical evidence of the Red hand being used in heraldry with the Scarlet Cord then I will accept it.

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-12-2004 12:46 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by MangyTiger, posted 10-22-2004 9:20 PM MangyTiger has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6435 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 307 of 337 (149381)
10-12-2004 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Cold Foreign Object
10-12-2004 12:46 AM


Speaking of worldview...
As you seem fond of pointing out that our worldview shapes how we interpret evidence I thought I'd share this insight into W.H. Bennett's worldview.
If you go to the web site of Northwest Books and enter Symbols Of Our Celto-Saxon Heritage into their search facility you will find this description of the copy they have for sale :
210 pages. Author's signature and inscription upon front free endpaper. Colour plates throughout. ''The author has devoted his study of heraldic emblems to the 'nations and tribes of Israel in the early days of the patriarchs and the wanderings of the tribes prior to their being formed into a Kingdom. He shows by prophecy that these tribes maintained their emblems after their captivities and dispersions, until their development into the Celto-Saxon nations of today - the modern counterparts, therefore, of ancient Israel.'' - from dust jacket. Author was president of the Canadian British Israel Association. Book clean and unmarked with light wear. Minor warping to book. Somewhat above-average wear to dust jacket now preserved in an archival-grade Brodart cover. Nice copy overall.
Author was president of the Canadian British Israel Association - wonder what his worldview is then ?
However, as I have said several times before just because something is involved with the British Israel movement doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong.

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-12-2004 12:46 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6435 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 308 of 337 (152139)
10-22-2004 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by MangyTiger
10-12-2004 2:53 AM


Bump for WILLOWTREE
Still waiting for evidence to support the claim that the Red Hand has ever been associated with a Scarlet Cord in Ulster.

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by MangyTiger, posted 10-12-2004 2:53 AM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-22-2004 10:41 PM MangyTiger has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 309 of 337 (152153)
10-22-2004 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by MangyTiger
10-22-2004 9:20 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
Thanks for the bump.
Mangy:
What part, or rather where in Message 54 do you begin to challenge the evidence ?
As far as Bennett being a British Israelite, what difference does it make ? Lets assume he was a Nazi, how does this erase the fact that many Red Hand emblems are found upon heraldry ensigns in Great Britain ?
Its actually quite simple.
The Red Hand originates from Genesis 38 and the unique birthing event of Zara.
The Zarahites adopted the Red Hand to be emblematic of their tribe.
Its existence in Ireland and Scotland = direct evidence that descendants of Zara transported it to the Isles.
The only reason these obvious facts are denied is because it so clearly evidences the claim that children of Jacob/Israelites populate a country in accordance with what prophetic scriptures said would happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by MangyTiger, posted 10-22-2004 9:20 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by jar, posted 10-22-2004 11:07 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 311 by MangyTiger, posted 10-23-2004 6:09 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 312 by MangyTiger, posted 10-23-2004 6:24 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 310 of 337 (152160)
10-22-2004 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Cold Foreign Object
10-22-2004 10:41 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
WILLOWTREE
There is no Red Hand in Genesis 38. It is Scarlet Thread.
Just in case you somehow missed it;
28: And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first,
29: And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
30: And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.
there is no mention of a Red Hand.
So, even if there is a Red Hand in heraldry, it has nothing to do with Genesis.
In addition, the origin of the Red Hand in Irish Heraldry has also been explained to you and it too, has NOTHING to do with Genesis.
If you would like, (see Message 75) I'll be happy to repost the origin of the Red Hand emblem in Irish Heraldry.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-22-2004 10:08 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-22-2004 10:41 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-23-2004 4:29 PM jar has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6435 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 311 of 337 (152213)
10-23-2004 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Cold Foreign Object
10-22-2004 10:41 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
Well jar beat me to a number of the points I was going to make while I was in bed - damn those time zones
WILLOWTREE writes:
What part, or rather where in Message 54 do you begin to challenge the evidence ?
In Message 298, Message 306 and Message 308 I made reference to this claim in your cited source :
From this ancient time the emblem of Ulster has been the Red Hand circled with a Scarlet Cord.
No evidence has ever been produced to support this assertion.
The Red Hand is common in British/Irish heraldry - everyone agrees with this. jar has provided explanations for its origin that are at least as plausible as yours. The issue is the red/scarlet cord Bennett refers to - beyond the claim in his book there seems to be no evidence of it ever existing in heraldry.
Without the red/scarlet cord the link from Genesis 38 to the Red Hand of Ulster becomes an unsupported fantasy.

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-22-2004 10:41 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-23-2004 4:52 PM MangyTiger has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6435 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 312 of 337 (152214)
10-23-2004 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Cold Foreign Object
10-22-2004 10:41 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
WILLOWTREE writes:
As far as Bennett being a British Israelite, what difference does it make ? Lets assume he was a Nazi, how does this erase the fact that many Red Hand emblems are found upon heraldry ensigns in Great Britain ?
Actually if he was a Nazi it would help your claim !
On the BIWF Web Site you will find a page describing their beliefs :
The Federation believes that the Lost Ten Tribes of the Northern House of Israel’s descendants are to be found in the Anglo-Saxon-Celtic and kindred peoples of today. As the Federation believes in the whole Bible it therefore believes the Covenants made between God and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) are everlasting and the British nation plays an important part of God’s plan.
Then there is one of your own favourite quotes :
Dr Scott: "Everyone has an ax to grind - objective persons declare their bias up-front so their audience knows when it creeps into their conclusions."
Combining these you can see that Bennett has a vested interest in supporting the Genesis 38 to Red Hand of Ulster claim.
On the other hand, if a Nazi - or Mother Theresa or anyone else, no matter how bad or good - produced and substantiated such a claim it would carry more weight IMO because they don't have an axe to grind in terms of the British-Israel agenda.
Of course, as far as we have seen to date Bennett has produced this claim but has produced nothing to substantiate it beyond a convoluted linkage of a verse that talks about a scarlet cord and the Red Hand of Ulster.

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-22-2004 10:41 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 313 of 337 (152330)
10-23-2004 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by jar
10-22-2004 11:07 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
In addition, the origin of the Red Hand in Irish Heraldry has also been explained to you and it too, has NOTHING to do with Genesis.
It has been self-evidently shown to you and explained to you where the Red Hand originates.
Your straight faced denial only reflects on the lack of integrity in your debating tactics.
Denial does not stop the evidence from existing or proving the claims.
Funny how you evos can deduce scraps of bones to be absolutely anthropon-apelike missing link but a text which records a unique birthing event that contains a hand breaching the womb and the subsequent emblem of that event represented as a Red Hand is not recognized = refusal to acknowledge the obvious = deliberate lack of integrity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by jar, posted 10-22-2004 11:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by jar, posted 10-23-2004 5:35 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 314 of 337 (152343)
10-23-2004 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by MangyTiger
10-23-2004 6:09 AM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
jar has provided explanations for its origin that are at least as plausible as yours.
Jar has not.
If origin is FIRST (and it is) then nothing Jar has posted predates Genesis 38.
Message 107 thoroughly refuted Jar.
The issue is the red/scarlet cord Bennett refers to - beyond the claim in his book there seems to be no evidence of it ever existing in heraldry.
What you are really saying is because YOU cannot find it on the internet then it does not exist.
Bennett's book supplies a color picture for each claim and the county or country it belongs to.
Message 54 quoting Bennett:
"Since 1920, the official arms of N.Ireland have only a Red Hand WITHOUT the Scarlet Cord."
Also the entire jest of your claim is to assert that my source is not evidence. This is only done to comfort yourself because the evidence is inescapable.
Your hang-up on the scarlet cord is lopsided to the claims and evidence I posted which are lopsided toward the Red Hand and its numerous appearances and its origin of Genesis 38.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by MangyTiger, posted 10-23-2004 6:09 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by MangyTiger, posted 10-23-2004 11:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 315 of 337 (152372)
10-23-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Cold Foreign Object
10-23-2004 4:29 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
Please point out the origin of the Red Hand in Genesis 38.
In case you do not have a copy of the Bible, here are the verses.
28: And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first,
29: And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
30: And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.
WILLOWTREE, have you ever read the Bible?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-23-2004 4:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-23-2004 7:48 PM jar has not replied

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