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Author Topic:   GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 316 of 337 (152431)
10-23-2004 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by jar
10-23-2004 5:35 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
Please point out the origin of the Red Hand in Genesis 38.
28: And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first,
29: And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
30: And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by jar, posted 10-23-2004 5:35 PM jar has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 317 of 337 (152437)
10-23-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Amlodhi
09-23-2004 9:40 PM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
Petrie Evidences Jeremiah and Tea Tephi in Egypt
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gavin.egypt/flinders.htm
The above link provides archaeological evidence supporting the Biblical claim that Jeremiah went to Egypt with daughters of Zedekiah, hence the Irish annals and their citation of a daughter of Pharoah, which is of course a title of a king.
I suggest you cache the link with the name "Jeremiah" to make it easier to read.
Now if the Irish are known to be visually described as "red" just like David in scripture was, then this descendant of his which is claimed in the annals as Pharoah's daughter is certainly not speaking about a dark-skinned North African Hamite, as those features are non existent in the Irish race.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 10-23-2004 07:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Amlodhi, posted 09-23-2004 9:40 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 10-23-2004 9:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 318 of 337 (152445)
10-23-2004 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Cold Foreign Object
10-23-2004 8:22 PM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
Now if the Irish are known to be visually described as "red" just like David in scripture was,
Can you point that one out to us in the scripture? Or is it another made up assertion like the red hand?
The above link provides archaeological evidence supporting the Biblical claim that Jeremiah went to Egypt with daughters of Zedekiah, hence the Irish annals and their citation of a daughter of Pharoah, which is of course a title of a king.
Well, not quite. Here is the part where he discusses Jeremiah from your link.
On reaching the place I found a wide flat plain bordering on the river, strewn all over with pottery, and with a mound of mud brick building in the midst of it. I asked the name of it and was told Kasr Bint el Yehudi , 'the palace of the Jew's daughter'. This at once brought Tahpanhes to my mind. Can there be any tradition here ? I turned to Jeremiah, and there read how he came, with Johanan, the son of Kareah, and all the officers, and the king's daughters, down toTahpanhes and dwelt there. We can hardly believe that the only place in Egypt where a celebrated daughter of a Jewish king lived, was called in later times 'the palace of the Jew's daughter' by accident, especially as such a name clung to the place, as so many names have lasted, as long or longer in Egypt and Syria. The next question was, if any reason could be found for its possessing a Greek name, Daphnae. Soon this was settled by finding an abundance of Greek pottery of the archaic period; and so many Greek remains, and so little Egyptian, that it was evident a Greek camp had been there.
I quote; "Soon this was settled by finding an abundance of Greek pottery of the archaic period; and so many Greek remains, and so little Egyptian, that it was evident a Greek camp had been there."
A Greek camp.
By the way, the term Zedekiah is not found in your link at all.
Nor is the term Tea Tephi.
These are all from the link you provided.
There was NO evidence. The closest thing is that he speculated based on what is in the Bible.
But there is NO evidence whatsoever.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-23-2004 8:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 12:11 AM jar has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 319 of 337 (152472)
10-23-2004 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Cold Foreign Object
10-23-2004 4:52 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
Hi WT. I'm not clear on something from your posts - could you clarify it for me please ?
quote:
The issue is the red/scarlet cord Bennett refers to - beyond the claim in his book there seems to be no evidence of it ever existing in heraldry.
What you are really saying is because YOU cannot find it on the internet then it does not exist.
Bennett's book supplies a color picture for each claim and the county or country it belongs to.
What I'm not clear on is two things about these pictures :
  • Do these pictures show a red/scarlet cord ?
    If it is just the Red Hand without the cord then this is pretty much a moot point - you have your version of where the Red Hand comes from which is just one of several.
  • Are they photographs or just illustrations ?
    If they're just illustrations - well anybody can draw a picture.
As I have said before, if you can show a reference to a heraldic usage of the Red Hand of Ulster in combination with a red/scarlet cord that I can independently verify (from a library or somewhere like the Royal College of Arms if the net can't show anything), I will cheerfully admit I am wrong. That is the nature of evidence based debate.
P.S. Ok, I lied about "cheerfully", but I will admit I am wrong

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-23-2004 4:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by jar, posted 10-24-2004 12:20 AM MangyTiger has replied
 Message 323 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 12:22 AM MangyTiger has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 320 of 337 (152476)
10-24-2004 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
10-23-2004 9:14 PM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
Can you point that one out to us in the scripture?
Sorry I didn't provide the cite initially - I am used to discussing Bible with persons who own a copy and are literate therein.
1Samuel 16:12
The link clearly evidences that Petrie found the place where:
Petrie writes:
On reaching the place I found a wide flat plain bordering on the river, strewn all over with pottery, and with a mound of mud brick building in the midst of it. I asked the name of it and was told Kasr Bint el Yehudi , 'the palace of the Jew's daughter'. This at once brought Tahpanhes to my mind. Can there be any tradition here ? I turned to Jeremiah, and there read how he came, with Johanan, the son of Kareah, and all the officers, and the king's daughters, down toTahpanhes and dwelt there. We can hardly believe that the only place in Egypt where a celebrated daughter of a Jewish king lived, was called in later times 'the palace of the Jew's daughter' by accident
Jeremiah 46:6-9
Even men, and women, and children, and the king's daughters, and every person that Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had left with Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Jeremiah the prophet, and Baruch the son of Neriah.
7 So they came into the land of Egypt: for they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: thus came they even to Tahpanhes.
8 Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah in Tahpanhes, saying,
9 Take great stones in thine hand, and hide them in the clay in the brickkiln, which is at the entry of Pharaoh's house in Tahpanhes, in the sight of the men of Judah
Hence, the Irish annals referring to Pharoah's daughter, the place where archaeology and the Bible say Jeremiah and the king's daughters commenced their journey into Spain and Ireland from.
responding to what is contained in link, Jar writes:
There was NO evidence. The closest thing is that he speculated based on what is in the Bible.
But there is NO evidence whatsoever.
It doesn't matter if you assert contrary to the evidence my Bible believing Protestant friend, anyone who is even remotely objective and has the ability to read can see the evidence for themself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 10-23-2004 9:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Asgara, posted 10-24-2004 12:20 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 324 by jar, posted 10-24-2004 12:30 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 321 of 337 (152479)
10-24-2004 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by MangyTiger
10-23-2004 11:48 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
One of my favorite quotes from the Brit-Israel nutcases is this one:
*** Christ's own personal flag is the Union Jack flag, as explained in Genesis 49:10, where it says clearly, that, "unto him (Christ / Shiloh) shall the gathering (Union) of the people (of Jack-ob/Israel) be."
from this site while Genesis 49:10 actually says
10: The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Jack-ob
ROTFLMAO!

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by MangyTiger, posted 10-23-2004 11:48 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by MangyTiger, posted 10-24-2004 1:01 AM jar has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2388 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 322 of 337 (152480)
10-24-2004 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Cold Foreign Object
10-24-2004 12:11 AM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
WT,
Am I just being stupid? Where is Spain and Ireland mentioned? I see discussion of a place in Egypt.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 12:11 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 12:31 AM Asgara has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 323 of 337 (152481)
10-24-2004 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by MangyTiger
10-23-2004 11:48 PM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
Do these pictures show a red/scarlet cord ?
The very early ones do - most do not.
Bennett says they disappeared early on as the Red Hand became the eminent emblematic symbol.
Are they photographs or just illustrations ?
Color photos or reproductions including county, country, or clan name.
I will attempt to scan and post them ASAP.
The only reason I have not is because I do not know how to use a scanner without much hassle.
Mangy:
My claims have centered around the Red Hand.
Genesis 38 is the origin.
Ignoring this spectacular evidence of children of Israel in Britain only proves up another claim of scripture - either way the Bible is proven true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by MangyTiger, posted 10-23-2004 11:48 PM MangyTiger has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 324 of 337 (152482)
10-24-2004 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Cold Foreign Object
10-24-2004 12:11 AM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
1Samuel 16:12
12: And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
And from that you get that he was red.
WILLOWTREE, you have a vivid imagination. LOL
WILLOWTREE writes:
The link clearly evidences that Petrie found the place where:
It clearly references that Petrie found nothing related to the issue.
He found a greek camp with no connection to Egypt or the Hebrews. He found a ruin that someone, unidentified, said was the "Palace of the Jew's daughter. No reference to the Bible, to Jeremiah, to anything.
He made a leap of faith to make a Biblical connection. But there is NO EVIDENCE.
There is no support.
It doesn't matter if you assert contrary to the evidence my Bible believing Protestant friend, anyone who is even remotely objective and has the ability to read can see the evidence for themself.
Yes, the readers will be able to decide for themselves.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 12:11 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 12:37 AM jar has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 325 of 337 (152483)
10-24-2004 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Asgara
10-24-2004 12:20 AM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
You are obviously not stupid.
Many posts back the debate already established that the Irish annals have the persons in question visiting Spain before settling in Ireland.
This latest evidence establishes the fact that Jeremiah was in Egypt with an entourage which included a least one kings daughter.
The annals call this female "Pharoah's daughter", hence Pharoah is a title of a king and these Irish annals are certainly not referring to a dark skinned North African but the daughter of Zedekiah/David whom the scriptures describe as ruddy/red.
Therefore, because the female in question is responsible for perpetuating Irish monarchy the daughter of Pharoah is referring to this daughter of Zedekiah who started their journey into Spain and Ireland from Egypt - just as the Bible says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Asgara, posted 10-24-2004 12:20 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Asgara, posted 10-24-2004 12:37 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 326 of 337 (152484)
10-24-2004 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by jar
10-24-2004 12:30 AM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
Jar writes:
And from that you get that he was red.
WILLOWTREE, you have a vivid imagination. LOL
From Dictionary.com
6 entries found for ruddy.
ruddy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rd)
adj. ruddier, ruddiest
Having a healthy, reddish color.
Once again Jar your ability to declare with certainty scraps of fossils to be whatever but how your intelligence ceases when a Bible is open equates to a suspicious objectivity.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 10-23-2004 11:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by jar, posted 10-24-2004 12:30 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by MangyTiger, posted 10-24-2004 1:27 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2388 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 327 of 337 (152485)
10-24-2004 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Cold Foreign Object
10-24-2004 12:31 AM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
I read the earlier posts and I did not see where the actual annals said anything like what was claimed of them. I saw where someone you claim was Jeremiah (not the name in the annals) was in Ireland at widely different times to the others you claimed as part of the story.
You claimed in the post my message was replying to, that
the place where archaeology and the Bible say Jeremiah and the king's daughters commenced their journey into Spain and Ireland from.
Where does archaeology mention Jeremiah in Spain and Ireland? Where does the bible mention Jeremiah going to Spain and/or Ireland?
I hope you do not take my post as jumping on the bandwagon here. I honestly do not see what you are claiming and wish for help.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 12:31 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 12:55 AM Asgara has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 328 of 337 (152487)
10-24-2004 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Asgara
10-24-2004 12:37 AM


Re: Evidencing the Royal Family lineage claim: Petrie Proves a Vital Link
Where does archaeology mention Jeremiah in Spain and Ireland?
Under different names, this is what the debate is about.
The Bible frames the picture at the start and at the end so to speak.
In between history reflects the frame using different names and titles.
I do not have the time at the moment to create a master post which summarizes the status of the debate for persons surfing by.
I will though - ASAP.
When this occurrs then let me know what you think.
But until then here is a quick link which reflects my position:
Jeremiah in Ireland
Of course, my main evidence resides with the research of Dr. Scott - yet to be posted.
sincerely,
WT
Edit:
BTW, Jeremiah 1 starts the Biblical claims with God telling him that he will be used to "plant".
We contend he planted a kings daughter in Ireland and that this lineage was David's thus God kept His word to David that a heir of his would reign over His people.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 10-23-2004 11:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Asgara, posted 10-24-2004 12:37 AM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by MangyTiger, posted 10-24-2004 1:09 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 334 by Amlodhi, posted 10-29-2004 1:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 329 of 337 (152489)
10-24-2004 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by jar
10-24-2004 12:20 AM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
Jack-ob ???
If you hadn't given the link I'd have thought you were making it up ! I'm still struggling to believe somebody actually did make it up.
I want some of whatever they're drinking or smoking...
Also ROTFLMAO

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by jar, posted 10-24-2004 12:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by jar, posted 10-24-2004 1:07 AM MangyTiger has not replied
 Message 332 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-24-2004 1:09 AM MangyTiger has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 330 of 337 (152490)
10-24-2004 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by MangyTiger
10-24-2004 1:01 AM


Re: Bump for WILLOWTREE
Yup. This whole topic is simply silly.
I'll leave it with you guys. I think I've posted enough of the actual material that the readers can make up their own minds. Good luck.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by MangyTiger, posted 10-24-2004 1:01 AM MangyTiger has not replied

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