Apostasy from Christ' true teachings

Ok Asgara, to bad I didn't document this find a while back when I went over it because now I have to look for it ;.) I Will find the prophecy and compare it to Missouri. I believe that the tragedy was more desctruction of buildings and such.Quiz[This message has been edited by Quiz, 11-10-2003]

Please do Quiz.All I could find were death numbers, numbers of troops sent to fight and a site that stated that most "battles" actually fought IN Missouri were small skirmishes.Missouri did have an issue with the Federal government, but how this translates to more tragedy than most, I don't know.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Read this page. I am to lazy to go through it to see if it is authentic but it should help with some thingsLDS FAQ: Fulfilled Prophecies of Joseph Smith, the Mormon ProphetQuiz

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I have seen them before these are nothing new to me. I am just trying to see where any of this is relevent to Joseph Smith being a false prophet. That was the point of asking for proof ;.)

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So you accept that Joseph Smith was a swindler and all-around not nice guy? You should hear how his neighbors described his schemes when he was young... he was famous for launching "treasure hunts" that he'd use to scam the unwitting locals.

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I believe that was the story, but I also believe, correct me if I am wrong "ancient hebrew" something we dont understand even with the rose stone.

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1) It's "rosetta"
2) That's not hebrew that he claimed to translate - it's Egyptian.
3) While ancient hebrew has changed, it's hardly unknown anyway.Also, are you familiar with the Kinderhook plates - where Joseph "translated" copper plates that were made-up nonsense by a group of people looking to prove that he was a fraud? He made this big proclamation about what they translated as ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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False prophecies

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Ah. So, going from your church's own documents, praytell, when in 1891 did Jesus Christ return (DHC 2:182)? When did the Civil War pour out on all nations (D&C 87:1-3)? When were the wicked of Smith's generation "swept off the face of the land" (DHC 1:315)? When was a temple built in Independence, MO by the generation living in 1832 (D&C 84:4,5)? Want me to go on?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Well I looked at the page and it is pretty clear that Joseph Smith predicted the the Civil war would turn into a World War:

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1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

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"..war shall be poured out on all nations, beginning at this place" - sounds pretty clear to me. Nothing less than a World War would satisfy that. Yet the American Civil War remained just that - it did not escalate as Smith clearly predicted.Of course Lindsay tries to argue that that is not what Smith meant at all - but look at his handling of the quote from Allred

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You have scarcely yet read the preface of your national trouble. Many nations will be drawn into the American maelstrom that now whirls through our land; and after many days, when the demon of war shall have exhausted his strength and madness upon American soil, by the destruction of all that can court or provoke opposition, he will remove his headquarters to the banks of the Rhine.

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Allred too predicts escalation of the American Civil War "Many nations will be drawn into the American maelstrom that now whirls through our land", yet Lindsay ignores that altogether, focussing only on the reference to the Rhine

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False prophecies

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OK.Please give me a couple of examples of J. Smith's prophecies which you consider that he has fulfilled.Please also list examples of what kind of evidence you would accept for each which would convince you that the the prophecies, in fact, were not fulfilled.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-11-2003]

I have already presented this evidence to you once, Quiz, and I don't believe you responded to it at all.It turns out that the Book of Mormon is wrong in a big way about the ancestry of the Native Americans.The Book of Mormon and DNA studiesNot every statement in a holy book can be verified or disproved scientifically. For example, there is no archeological evidence that would prove the existence of most personalities described in the Bible prior to the time of King Solomon. Similarly, most of the events cannot be corroborated with hard evidence outside the Bible. However, one teaching of the Book of Mormon is different. It teaches that three groups of ancient Hebrews came from Israel to the Americas -- the first in 2247 BCE. Their descendants separated into two nations, the Nephites and the Lamanites. Subsequently, all but the Lamanites died off. The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of modern-day Native Americans. DNA, facial structure, and blood type studies seem to conflict with this belief. They demonstrate that the today's Natives descended from ancient people in Siberia. If the Natives were descendents of Lamanites, then one would expect to find Middle Eastern genetic markers in the DNA, facial structures and blood factors of American Natives.
DNA Studies:

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A number of investigators have used genetic and blood testing studies to show that Native Americans are related closely to the inhabitants of Siberia . However, Thomas W. Murphy, 35, chairperson of the anthropology department at Edmonds Community College in Lynnwood, WA went further. He was raised as a Mormon in southern Idaho, and has said that he is "not an active member of the local congregation, but I'm very active in the Mormon intellectual community." 2 He decided to examine whether DNA analysis would confirm that many, perhaps most, Native Americans are descended from ancient Israelites. According to the LA Times, "He analyzed data collected by a multimillion-dollar 'molecular genealogy' project at Brigham Young [University] as well as other, similar projects that track ancestry from people worldwide via DNA in blood samples." Murphy concluded that over the last few thousand years, modern-day Jews and modern-day Native Americans do not share common ancestors. If they did, then genetic markers would be found in Natives identical to those in the descendents of ancient Hebrews. He concluded that: "the Book of Mormon is a piece of 19th century fiction. And that means that we have to acknowledge sometimes Joseph Smith lied." However, he believes that "the book might be fiction, but inspired as well."

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He contributed a chapter in the anthology "American Apocrypha" in which he reported the results of his research. 3 The essay is taken from his doctoral dissertation at the University of Washington. He faced a church disciplinary council, scheduled for 2002-DEC-8, at which he might have been excommunicated for his beliefs -- probably be the first Mormon expelled for genetic research. 4 He concluded that: "the odds for staying in the church are overwhelming arrayed against me. The Mormon faith is going to survive one way or another. The Catholic Church survived Galileo, but they first had to admit they were wrong." (Galileo was condemned by the Roman Catholic Church in 1633 CE for claiming that the Earth orbits the sun -- a belief that the church has since embraced.)

Ok people,I am going to have to ask for some time to study these reponses. This is alot of information to go over and reply with a good reponse, be back in a while with responses.Quiz

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I have seen them before these are nothing new to me. I am just trying to see where any of this is relevent to Joseph Smith being a false prophet. That was the point of asking for proof ;.)
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So you accept that Joseph Smith was a swindler and all-around not nice guy? You should hear how his neighbors described his schemes when he was young... he was famous for launching "treasure hunts" that he'd use to scam the unwitting locals.

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I have heard alot of bad stuff about Joseph Smith when he was a child. That is just it he was a child and kids make mistakes. After he became a prophet he was enlightend and yeah he translated the Book of Mormon and all other scriptures he could, in the matter which was described above. This is ok because seer stones were used in the Old Testament by other seers of God. Just because he made some mistakes before he became a prophet, speaking for god that is, does not mean he didn't actually become a prophet after he made his mistakes. If you understand the bible correctly you will see the same pattern among other prophets.

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I believe that was the story, but I also believe, correct me if I am wrong "ancient hebrew" something we dont understand even with the rose stone.
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1) It's "rosetta"
2) That's not hebrew that he claimed to translate - it's Egyptian.
3) While ancient hebrew has changed, it's hardly unknown anyway.

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Also, are you familiar with the Kinderhook plates - where Joseph "translated" copper plates that were made-up nonsense by a group of people looking to prove that he was a fraud? He made this big proclamation about what they translated as

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1.) I know what it is, duh!
2.) Ancient hebrew unless I understood it wrong, eatherway that does not matter, "ancient languages" rather, we dont have information to understand these languages, so technically I dont trust the worlds translation on this item and I honestly dont see how you could accept a translation which is not 100% for sure eather.
3.) Thats the point no buddy understands ancient languages as much to trust their translation fully, and thus is why it would take a prophet to translate it correctly.Quiz

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False prophecies
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Ah. So, going from your church's own documents, praytell, when in 1891 did Jesus Christ return (DHC 2:182)? When did the Civil War pour out on all nations (D&C 87:1-3)? When were the wicked of Smith's generation "swept off the face of the land" (DHC 1:315)? When was a temple built in Independence, MO by the generation living in 1832 (D&C 84:4,5)? Want me to go on?

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1.)DHC = ?
2.)My understanding of the Civil War was, most of all the states of america were in battle.
3.)The word "generation" ment dispensation, Smith speak to the Saints often like this. This is where the understanding came from for the meaning of generation defined as dispensation in the other thread by buzsaw.Quiz[This message has been edited by Quiz, 11-12-2003]

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I have heard alot of bad stuff about Joseph Smith when he was a child. That is just it he was a child and kids make mistakes. After he became a prophet he was enlightend and yeah he translated the Book of Mormon and all other scriptures he could, in the matter which was described above. This is ok because seer stones were used in the Old Testament by other seers of God. Just because he made some mistakes before he became a prophet, speaking for god that is, does not mean he didn't actually become a prophet after he made his mistakes. If you understand the bible correctly you will see the same pattern among other prophets.

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Ah, so when Smith killed two people before being shot himself, was that enlightenment? What about when he proclaimed a translation for several copper tablets of nonsense put before him to debunk him? What about his translation of the Book of Breathings - pretty inspired, eh? Where in the bible are seer stones used?

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2.) Ancient hebrew unless I understood it wrong, eatherway that does not matter, "ancient languages" rather, we dont have information to understand these languages, so technically I dont trust the worlds translation on this item and I honestly dont see how you could accept a translation which is not 100% for sure eather.

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Don't trust the worlds translation??? The Book of the Dead is one of the most basic of Egyptian documents - it's buried with pretty much every mummy! It's just basic Egyptian - nothing even slightly complex about it - and we *do* understand ancient egyptian very well, that's what the Rosetta stone got us. The same document was written in three languages, one of them ancient egyptian, one ancient greek, and one demontic. We've long known ancient greek quite well, since most ancient scholarly works were in it. We've been able to consistently, coherently read and refine egyptian, as a consequence, ever since.In the papyrus, there's not even the slightest reference of Abraham or sacrifices in it. The same picture, by the way, occurs in many copies, and when it's not missing pieces, it is clearly *not* a person being sacrificed. It's a common page from the Book of Breathings. The jars underneath are canopic jars - the jars that the dead's organs were placed in during mummification. What part of "common burial tome" do you not understand?

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3.) Thats the point no buddy understands ancient languages as much to trust their translation fully, and thus is why it would take a prophet to translate it correctly.

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He wasn't even *SLIGHTLY* close. Not even the tinest bit. He didn't get a single part remotely correct.Of course, seing as he "translated" a set of plates of utter nonsense, it's not surprising.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 11-12-2003][This message has been edited by Rei, 11-12-2003]

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1.)DHC = ?

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DHC = Documentary History of the Church
D&C = Doctrines and Covenants

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2.)My understanding of the Civil War was, most of all the states of america were in battle.

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Yes. States. Not nations. The rest of the world, for the most part, remained staunchly neutral.

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3.)The word "generation" ment dispensation, Smith speak to the Saints often like this. This is where the understanding came from for the meaning of generation defined as dispensation in the other thread by buzsaw.

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Evidence somewhere that "generation" means, or ever meant, "dispensation".Care to address the other ones?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Of course, take all the time you need, Quiz.There is no time limit, and you have quite a few responses to get to.However, I would request that if you expect to take quite a long time to check back in to let us know you are still out there.

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Ah, so when Smith killed two people before being shot himself, was that enlightenment? What about when he proclaimed a translation for several copper tablets of nonsense put before him to debunk him? What about his translation of the Book of Breathings - pretty inspired, eh? Where in the bible are seer stones used?

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When people try to stop the work of the Lord, they die and this is ok because they are trying to stop the way of the Lord, it is the same for those who disagree with the Lords work(i.e satan), they die, very simple comcept, I am surprised they didn't die.As far as the transaltion of ancient documents, Yes they are still making discoveries that help them to correct the err in translating these documents. I do understand the more they find the more they believe they have a correct understanding of these documents. The problem is, what if they find a key (i.e. a corner stone, not the rosetta stone) and this piece changes the entire puzzle from understanding ancient documents to showing they were 100% wrong?. I am saying they are 100% wrong in their understanding because they dont have all the puzzles and never will. Very simple concept. Why try to find a factual bases concerning something using a theoritical method? I wont debate the ancient language problem here, I am not going to fall for something that is unsecure. Even if they had the keystone to understanding these ancient documents nobody is around to validate the understanding to say if this understanding is correct or incorrect. I wont ever agree with any translation of ancient document and say, ok that is factual. Honestly as a critical thinker I dont see how you "being a critical thinker" would accept something which is relying hope. A critical thinker would only accept something that is 10/10. Translaters could not come to a conclusion that they have translated ancient documents 10/10 times because no body is alive which lived in ancient times.Quiz