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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
Peter
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 258 of 329 (11867)
06-20-2002 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Jet
05-31-2002 12:16 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
As to your first point, I said "Logical" conclusion. Your conclusion obviously does not qualify as being in the arena of logic.

As to your second point, I said "Chance", not change.

Enough said!


I believe that the reply meant to say Chance, but that
change over time (which IS evolution) was on the poster's mind.

Evolution has nothing to do with chance ... at all.

Mutations can be considered chance, natural selection (one
of the natural phenomena behind evolution) cannot be considered
chance.

It's just adaptation ... a feedback system similar to those
found in control engineering.

Having read the Bible, and having been subjected to peer review
(albiet in my own field) and adjudged NOT feeble minded, I did
not come to the conclusion that there is a single creator.

Show me the train of logic that would lead someone, on that basis
of one written work, to form an entire world-view and opinion
on the creation of the universe, life on earth, and
diversity of life on earth.

Would you read a single, seminal geology text which was uncorroborated
any where else and take it as fact ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Jet, posted 05-31-2002 12:16 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Jet, posted 06-21-2002 12:23 PM Peter has responded

  
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 329 (11922)
06-21-2002 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Peter
06-20-2002 8:43 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:

Show me the train of logic that would lead someone, on that basis
of one written work, to form an entire world-view and opinion
on the creation of the universe, life on earth, and
diversity of life on earth.

*--------------------------*

***This is what I would consider flawed logic on your part. The Bible is not "one written work", as you put it. It consists of more than 60 individual writings, written by dozens of men who were inspired of God, over a timespan of centuries, and yet the Bible is consistant throughout its' entirety. Show me one other piece of literary work that can claim such accuracy and accomplishment. Wait, let me save you some time. There is no other such piece of literary work. Only that which is inspired of God could accomplish such a feat of complete and total accuracy.***

Shalom

Jet

------------------
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

Prof. George Greenstei


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Peter, posted 06-20-2002 8:43 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by nator, posted 06-21-2002 7:27 PM Jet has responded
 Message 282 by Peter, posted 07-08-2002 10:14 AM Jet has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 260 of 329 (11939)
06-21-2002 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Jet
06-21-2002 12:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
This is what I would consider flawed logic on your part. The Bible is not "one written work", as you put it. It consists of more than 60 individual writings, written by dozens of men who were inspired of God, over a timespan of centuries, and yet the Bible is consistant throughout its' entirety.

Depending upon which Gospel you read, Jesus is crucified either before (John) or after (Matthew, Mark, & Luke) Passover. This is hardly consistent.

quote:
Show me one other piece of literary work that can claim such accuracy and accomplishment.

The Koran? The Bahvigad Gita? The I Ching? The Lord of the Rings trilogy could be included if we are just talking about literary works.

[QUOTE]Wait, let me save you some time. There is no other such piece of literary work. Only that which is inspired of God could accomplish such a feat of complete and total accuracy.

*[/B][/QUOTE]

Total accuracy? So, do you think that rabbits chew the cud and that the sun stopped in the sky and that the Earth has waters below it and above it, and that it is surrounded by a "firmament" which the stars are "set into?"

------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."

-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Jet, posted 06-21-2002 12:23 PM Jet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Jet, posted 12-09-2002 2:32 AM nator has not yet responded

  
jennacreationist
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 329 (11977)
06-23-2002 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Diamus
03-15-2002 1:59 PM


ok I read the whole thing and comming from the man's point of view that does not believe in the Bible as God's word, I don't beleive he read it in context. Just as so many people do today he took catch phrases and different ideas such as the slaying of a people and boxed God's dealings with a people who were obviously pagan had been given chances to change chose not to and were destroyed. God doesn't change he still punishes(wether we like it or not) those nations who choose other God's above Him.
Look at all the third world countries in dire poverty and are they Christian nations? Unfortunately for them no. He is a Father who forgives and yet He is just and swift in His actions who are against Him. Slavery wasn't the same as we think of today, there are so many things that words you have to go back into the original language, they weren't poorly treated they were likened to a housekeeper. We still have levels in our societies. God never acts like a little man but He does definitely let us know when something is displeasing and why and what the consequences are, he also is loving forgiving and all the lovey things we attribute to God and who is to question when He carries out punishments when clearly we all had our warnnings?
The Bible is not fallible and prophecy has proven it there are all sorts of prove it's, just look at Jerusalem today,
It's all so amazing !
God Bless~ jennacreationist
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Diamus, posted 03-15-2002 1:59 PM Diamus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Mister Pamboli, posted 06-23-2002 3:36 AM jennacreationist has not yet responded
 Message 264 by jennacreationist, posted 06-24-2002 12:55 AM jennacreationist has not yet responded

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 5623 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 262 of 329 (11979)
06-23-2002 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by jennacreationist
06-23-2002 2:12 AM


Just back from a enforced vacation (illness not gaol) and good to see lively debate still going on. Also, it is quite nice, in its way, to see some of the dafter forms of christian fundamentalism still paddling in the shallows of logic.

quote:
Originally posted by jennacreationist:
God doesn't change he still punishes(wether we like it or not) those nations who choose other God's above Him.

Cehck out Genesis 6:6 - God changes. "The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth." He regrets - one cannot regret if one is unchanging.

quote:
Look at all the third world countries in dire poverty and are they Christian nations? Unfortunately for them no.

Perhaps you were thinking of third world countries on a different planet? You certainly can't be thinking of Ethiopia (a Christian tradition stretching back to the very first generations of Christians), or South America (overwhelmingly Roman) or sub-Saharan Africa (nearly all countries have a majority Christian population covering a wide mix of christian denominations including Roman and Anglican, and of course much presbyterianism.) Really Jenna, that was a terrible thing to say.[b] [QUOTE]
He is a Father who forgives and yet He is just and swift in His actions who are against Him.[/b][/QUOTE]

So why did Jeremiah have to ask of Him "Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why do all who are treacherous thrive?"

[b] [QUOTE]Slavery wasn't the same as we think of today[/b][/QUOTE]

No you're right - it was much worse. Think of Exodus 21:20 "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished." Now I don't know what you think of as slavery today, but as a member of Anti-Slavery International I can tell you it is alive and well, in the Biblical forms of bond-servitude and the enslavement of captives. And it is a disgusting and horrifying institution. When you write such a thing, think of your own family, and think if you would wish them to live under such laws. Do you or yours have a mortgage, a car loan, a student loan? Do you or would you consider yourself the property, the physical and sexual chattel of the banker or law agent until the debt was paid?

Take care Jenna. The Bible is a wonderful scripture, but remember "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." I didn't feel much love in your empty knee-jerk reactions to poverty and slavery.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jennacreationist, posted 06-23-2002 2:12 AM jennacreationist has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by mark24, posted 06-23-2002 5:52 AM Mister Pamboli has not yet responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3241 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 263 of 329 (11983)
06-23-2002 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Mister Pamboli
06-23-2002 3:36 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Mister Pamboli:
Just back from a enforced vacation (illness not gaol) and good to see lively debate still going on.

Welcome back, Mister P. Hope you are back to 100% fitness, we missed you!

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Mister Pamboli, posted 06-23-2002 3:36 AM Mister Pamboli has not yet responded

  
jennacreationist
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 329 (12023)
06-24-2002 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by jennacreationist
06-23-2002 2:12 AM


Ok Mr Pambolli, point taken. I certainly didn't mean to sound so cold and condescending. After all I'm almost certain those are some of the reasons Christians today are not taken seriously. However, I still hold my position as far as Nations as a whole go. The Us. by far is the largest Christian Nation and the most prosperous. Also God has said not to be envious when the wicked appear to be prosperous, because basically they will get their's in the end. As far as being a fundamentalist those are harsh words. I am not a "Bible thumper" that judges people or threatens people with hell. I actually do prefer a loving approach to "win people over". I think my life is a ernest teastament to that.
I do not nor have I ever condoned slavery and I apologize profoundly if I came across that I do. Yes you are right I acted rather crassly especially considerring Mosses himself declared to let His people go.
The point I was trying to make is that the Bible is not fallible. Obviously the people that read it are, but what about all of the little nook and cranny cryptic prophesies that have already come to pass and the ones that are occurring right in front of our eyes such as Jerusalem's fight over land? God has stated that He has emotions and feelings, when He declared he was destroying the earth , he had already given us so many chances to leave our evil ways, he warnned us and did we listen no so He did what He promised, We gave Him profound grief, chose other gods even though He walked and talked with us. He's always done what he says he will do, and He also provided a Free gift for salvation . The Bible also states that unless you are a true beleiver you will not understand these mysteries written within....
God Bless,
Jennacreationist~
This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jennacreationist, posted 06-23-2002 2:12 AM jennacreationist has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Mister Pamboli, posted 06-24-2002 1:58 AM jennacreationist has responded

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 5623 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 265 of 329 (12038)
06-24-2002 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by jennacreationist
06-24-2002 12:55 AM


Thanks for the kind words, Mark. It was nothing too serious, but it did keep me out of action for a while and then I went up to the mountains to recuperate. But it is nice to be back.
quote:
Originally posted by jennacreationist:
Ok Mr Pambolli, point taken. I certainly didn't mean to sound so cold and condescending. After all I'm almost certain those are some of the reasons Christians today are not taken seriously.

I think you're right - there is a nasty streak of materialist triumphalism in US creationism that I find quite disturbing. I wasn't so aware of it before I relocated here, but it is certainly unpleasant. I doubt very much that you are a cold and condescending person - I do hope not - but it is so easy, especially in the US, to forget that Christ teaches humility. "He who would save his soul, shall lose it."[b] [QUOTE]However, I still hold my position as far as Nations as a whole go. The Us. by far is the largest Christian Nation and the most prosperous.[/b][/QUOTE]

Really? Do you think there is a relationship? The US population is 1.65 times the size of the Brazilian population, but the gross national product per capita is 7.33 times greater. Yet strangely the proportion of Christians in Brazil is greater than in the US.

Perhaps, like some I know (I grew up in a rigid presbyterian community in Scotland) you do not regard Brazil as truly Christian because it is predominantly Roman Catholic.

Let's look at Malawi - a strongly presbyterian, almost entirely Christian nation. Let's compare to, say, a Muslim nation of similar size? Now perhaps you would think I was cheating if I chose one of those oil-rich Muslim nations. So I'll choose Mali - another African nation, with 11 million people, overwhelmingly Muslim.

Strange to say, Mali's GNP per capita is 1.3 times that of Malawi.

So, I don't know what you were trying to say, but if it was that their is some correlation between Christianity and the wealth of a nation, think again.[b] [QUOTE]As far as being a fundamentalist those are harsh words. I am not a "Bible thumper" that judges people or threatens people with hell. I actually do prefer a loving approach to "win people over". I think my life is a ernest teastament to that.[/b][/QUOTE]

I'm gald if that is true and of course apologise if you thought my words were harsh. You can perhaps see why I used them?[b] [QUOTE]I do not nor have I ever condoned slavery and I apologize profoundly if I came across that I do. Yes you are right I acted rather crassly especially considerring Mosses himself declared to let His people go.[/b][/QUOTE]

You are absolutely right about Moses! A good point well made, and I am glad indeed if you oppose slavery. It is worth visting the site http://www.antislavery.org to find out more about this appalling practice in the world today.[b] [QUOTE]
The point I was trying to make is that the Bible is not fallible. Obviously the people that read it are, but what about all of the little nook and cranny cryptic prophesies that have already come to pass and the ones that are occurring right in front of our eyes such as Jerusalem's fight over land?[/b][/QUOTE]

Well, the trouble with a cryptic prophecy is that it is just that - cryptic. Give me a nice straightforward unassailable prediction anyday!
It is interesting, for example, that the Baha'i feel they can very effectively demonstrate that their religion fulfills Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian and Jewish prophecies. Fulfilling cryptic prophecies lies so much in the interpretation that it really is of little use. I would, quite literally, put no faith in such things.

Have fu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jennacreationist, posted 06-24-2002 12:55 AM jennacreationist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jennacreationist, posted 06-24-2002 10:22 PM Mister Pamboli has responded
 Message 285 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-18-2002 3:56 AM Mister Pamboli has responded

Martin J. Koszegi
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 329 (12075)
06-24-2002 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by LudvanB
03-14-2002 8:37 PM


The firmament was the space from the surface of the earth up to the surrounding water canopy (of unspecified thickness), beyond which, extended the cosmos. This "firmament" area could be considered as a "universe" in the sense that this comprised the area that was used by all life forms in the world.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by John, posted 06-24-2002 6:22 PM Martin J. Koszegi has responded

John
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 329 (12078)
06-24-2002 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Martin J. Koszegi
06-24-2002 5:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Martin J. Koszegi:
The firmament was the space from the surface of the earth up to the surrounding water canopy (of unspecified thickness), beyond which, extended the cosmos. This "firmament" area could be considered as a "universe" in the sense that this comprised the area that was used by all life forms in the world.

I honestly don't feel that this is an accurate representation of the firmament.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm

Take care.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 06-24-2002 5:20 PM Martin J. Koszegi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 06-28-2002 6:19 PM John has responded

jennacreationist
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 329 (12112)
06-24-2002 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Mister Pamboli
06-24-2002 1:58 AM


Ok so let me ask you this...
What do you beleive and why?
Because the God that I know is a personal friend of mine that has performed miracles on my behalf quite regularly.
Cryptic yes, but not to those that are true beleivers. He even states that those that are unbeleiving cannot understand all the mysteries containned with in.
Would you not agree that America is better off monetarily , health wise in education etc. Yes look at some of those high dollar oil countries aren't very few of the actual people living there leadding any kind of a "wealthy" lifestyle.
Aren't most of the real inhabitors poorly treated, underfed, not politically represented etc. or am I gettting the wrong picture with the wrong info?
Do you not find it intriguing that God stated He would one day restore the Jewish people and their land right before the end times?
And isn't it intresting that most wars today do have a religious background to them?( not to mention that the Jewish people have a great prescence throughout history, most religions stem from them etc.)
That's not so cryptic that it's completely unseeable is it?
Again. I am a nice person I just have a firm foothold in My beleifs not because someone told me to but because I get the joy of experiancing my relationship with Him everyday~
I will check out the website thank you.
Jennacreationist
This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Mister Pamboli, posted 06-24-2002 1:58 AM Mister Pamboli has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by compmage, posted 06-25-2002 1:47 AM jennacreationist has responded
 Message 270 by Mister Pamboli, posted 06-25-2002 10:58 AM jennacreationist has responded

compmage
Member (Idle past 3199 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 269 of 329 (12133)
06-25-2002 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by jennacreationist
06-24-2002 10:22 PM


quote:
Originally posted by jennacreationist:

Cryptic yes, but not to those that are true beleivers. He even states that those that are unbeleiving cannot understand all the mysteries containned with in.


In psycology this would be called a self-reinforcing delusion.

------------------
compmage


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jennacreationist, posted 06-24-2002 10:22 PM jennacreationist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by jennacreationist, posted 06-26-2002 6:19 PM compmage has not yet responded

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 5623 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 270 of 329 (12157)
06-25-2002 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by jennacreationist
06-24-2002 10:22 PM


quote:
Originally posted by jennacreationist:
Ok so let me ask you this...
What do you believe and why?

Well, I'm not one to put forth my personal credo in public, but, in respect to the current discussion we are having, it seems only fair to say something about it. For me, the language in which we speak of God is necessarily symbolic. Human concepts cannot encompass or delineate God - to speak of God's emotions or actions is to put a human gloss on that which we cannot understand, it is to bring the reality of God down to our level so that we can prepare for communion with God. Language like "God is angry" or "God rewards" is like a cartoon or a caricature - it picks out the features which strike us most strongly and delineates them clearly in our terms. They are not the reality of God, this can only be comprehended by losing ourselves, by giving up our human baggage and concepts and concerns. Jesus confronts our human concerns - wealth is only a hindrance, even thinking of tomorrow and planning for your future is a hindrance, even burying your father is a hindrance, even our religious concepts such as marriage get in the way of our understanding God. We have to free ourselves completely these concerns - anything concept which is not in itself eternal can only stand between us and the reality of God.[b] [QUOTE]Yes look at some of those high dollar oil countries aren't very few of the actual people living there leadding any kind of a "wealthy" lifestyle.
Aren't most of the real inhabitors poorly treated, underfed, not politically represented etc. or am I gettting the wrong picture with the wrong info?[/b][/QUOTE]

Could you read my post again? I explicitly say that I will not use a hugely wealthy oil rich country as an example. I take two examples - Brazil, which is overwhelmingly Christian but much poorer than the USA; and Mali and Malawi, two poor African nations of roughly the same size, of which the Muslim country is the richer by about a third. How does this fit with your view, that the Christ who urged us to give all we have to the poor, the Christ who told us to have no thought for the morrow, how does this poverty of Christian nations fit with your idea of a God who rewards with wealth those nations who believe in him?
[b] [QUOTE]Do you not find it intriguing that God stated He would one day restore the Jewish people and their land right before the end times?[/b][/QUOTE]

No. Many tribal religions (remembering that the Israelites were a semitic tribe) have very similar prophecies. Restoration of land is a powerful human symbol.[b] [QUOTE]And isn't it intresting that most wars today do have a religious background to them?( not to mention that the Jewish people have a great prescence throughout history, most religions stem from them etc.)[/b][/QUOTE]

Of course wars have a religious background. Wars are between nations, nations are distinct groups of people, religion is a strong distinguishing feature. There was however no strong religious background to the two greatest wars of the last century, or to those of the century before. Or come to think of it of the century before that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jennacreationist, posted 06-24-2002 10:22 PM jennacreationist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by jennacreationist, posted 06-26-2002 6:12 PM Mister Pamboli has responded

jennacreationist
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 329 (12224)
06-26-2002 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Mister Pamboli
06-25-2002 10:58 AM


Thank you for sharring your thoughts I appreciate it.
Not so oddly enough I agree with you on many levels.
Especially the parts about the things that hinder us in life(except for the one on marriage, because Christ is always using the bond of marriage likened to the bond and commitment He has with the church).
Maybe wealth isn't the right term I'm looking for in my example.
Blessed maybe...I'm obviously not getting my point across on that particular point. So I'll have to really think of how I can make it without sounding ridiculous. I know what I'm attempting to say...
I definitely agree with letting go of our lives for personal gain to help others and I am a practicer of that.
In fact I think that's why I am so stead fast in my beleifs where Christ is concernned, giving the ultimate sacrifice and using His life not to judge others but to love others.It's all about personal relationship.
I know I obtain to be more like Him even though I fall very short.
The reason I brought up the oil countries is because you said you didn't want to use them as an example because of fairness.
maybe I misinterpretted what you meant. Sorry if that was the case.
Which wars are you refferring to that don't have a religious conotation ?
thanks again,
Jennacreationist~
This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Mister Pamboli, posted 06-25-2002 10:58 AM Mister Pamboli has responded

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 Message 274 by Mister Pamboli, posted 06-26-2002 9:30 PM jennacreationist has not yet responded

jennacreationist
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 329 (12225)
06-26-2002 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by compmage
06-25-2002 1:47 AM


I disagree because I personally have experianced this.
I read the Bible like everyone else, thought it was long, borring, contradictory etc.
Until I became a true beleiver and it was as if a pair of glasses was put on my eyes.
What I read made sense litterally.
Not because anyone told me what it said, not because I bought a different Bible... sorry that I don't have any "scientific proof" but I can say I know I'm not the only one who has experieanced this.

Thanks~ jennacreationist


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