quote:Originally posted by jennacreationist: I disagree because I personally have experianced this. I read the Bible like everyone else, thought it was long, borring, contradictory etc. Until I became a true beleiver and it was as if a pair of glasses was put on my eyes. What I read made sense litterally. Not because anyone told me what it said, not because I bought a different Bible... sorry that I don't have any "scientific proof" but I can say I know I'm not the only one who has experieanced this.
People have this reaction to a lot of things-- music, novels, Babylon 5(wow-- now THAT is an epic saga). You could find people to say the same about the Rig Veda, the Upanishads, the Koran, the Satanic Bible, Liber Al, Amway(seriously), Scientology. Cult leaders-- Manson, Koresh, Jim Jones-- depend upon this reaction.
But why believe? Why base belief on this reaction?
quote:Originally posted by jennacreationist: ... except for the one on marriage, because Christ is always using the bond of marriage likened to the bond and commitment He has with the church ...
I was thinking of when the Sadducees appraoched Christ and asked him that awkward question about marriage in heaven. His answer points out to them that their human concepts simply don't apply, the thooughts and principles are not capable of emcompassing what heaven and God are about.
So what I was trying to say, was that even the concepts and principles we feel most dearly about and understand are of little use to us in comprehending God.
(The analogy of marriage to the church is of course an image Christ uses to clarify a particular issue, and not really related to my example.)[b] [QUOTE]I definitely agree with letting go of our lives for personal gain to help others and I am a practicer of that.[/b][/QUOTE]
I'll tell you something that really put me off the creationists in the States. Remember that I did grow up in a very traditional, very Bible-centred community, so I wasn't too surprised by their conservatism. But anyway, I had been in the States for a few weeks, and discovered there was a church near my apartment that seemed to go in for creationism in quite a big way - they advertised lectures and meetings concerning it and their newsletter emphasised their commitment to following the Bible as literally as possible. So I went along to a service one Sunday and wow! the car park was full of Mercedes and Lexus and fancy SUVs. Sure there were quite a few battered pick ups and ancient Civics, but the overall impression was of a substantial display of wealth. And I listened to the sermon and came away thinking that they probably read the Bible every day, devoutly, but they just don't "get it." Creation in seven days and an ark full of animals - this they can accept literally. Give all you have to the poor and follow me, or the impossibility of a rich man entering the kingdom of heaven - well they clearly didn't take that quite so literally!
Anyway, don't think I'm putting down a whole nation. The quaker meetings here as wonderful and profound as any I have experienced and I found a lovely little Episcopalian church - reverent and intimate.[b] [QUOTE]Which wars are you refferring to that don't have a religious conotation ?[/b][/QUOTE]
World Wars - Britain certainly didn't fight Germany over any religious differences. Roman Catholic Austrians didn't fight Roman Catholic Poles over any religious differences, nor did the French and Italians, or the Lutheran Danes and the Lutheran Germans. Sure there was religious language on both sides, but such is always used in time of war. One feels closer to God when under threat death, I'm sure.
In light of colophon and "TOL-E-DOT" research: Adam was not just a detail in the Genesis account, but the writer of its initial chapters; the later, off-shoot, accounts of the Genesis precedent by the Babylonians, for instance, present "parallels" in their typical pagan fashion. This "fashion" is described in the web cite that you provided for me in you response. The inferior perspective of the pagan culture did indeed host some wierd ideas about how the universe was forged. The oldest account of the structure of the universe, the Genesis narrative, however, is not dependent on pagan perspectives relative to their take on the nature of the "firmament."
In remembrance that only Jesus must be reckoned with . . . (email@example.com)
Before I respond to the subject matter, I have some usage concerns about this cite that I'd like some advice about. Will the quote option icon for responding to someone's message, work for longer messages; it would't quote your whole message for me. And once quoted, how do you get the nifty final effect of the quotations your responding to, set off by border lines? I trust that there are simple answers to these concerns. Thank you.
In remembrance that only Jesus must be reckoned with . . . (firstname.lastname@example.org)
I realize that this post is a bit old, but I started reading this thread and was absolutely sickened by the discussion. It's as if Jet isn't even speaking the same language as anybody else. TruCreation is almost as bad, but that can be left for later.
Jet: How about spewing your empty-headed dogma somewhere else... Try directly and succinctly answering a question put to you! I hope that this thread (because, admittedly, it is the only thread I've read here) is not indicative of your personality. You come off as some pompous, pseudo-intellectual ass. How can you act so condescending towards another human being asking a perfectly logical question of you?
Quoted from Jet (05-11-2002 02:18 PM): “For the most part, the people who use these types of excuses have never attempted to get familiar with God. Oh, to be sure, some will claim that they have tried, or that they used to believe, but the reality is that they never gave God a fraction of the attention that they willingly give to scientists and their everchanging theories. I personally thank God that I am not burdened with sorrow for thoses who are willingly lost and prefer darkness rather than light. Perhaps the reason I am not burdened is because I have heard so many lame excuses as to why someone either doesn't believe in God, or doesn't believe the Bible is the Word of God, or doesn't believe that God would bother Himself with the lives of men and women, and yet these same people not only willingly, but gladly receive the latest theory of some scientist that they have never even heard of, let alone having ever met and spoken with them.”
What you seem not to be burdened with is the critical analysis of the world around you. You don’t seem to be living on the same plane of reality as the rest of us earthlings. I’m sure that if it were left in the hands of people like you, Copernicus would have been drawn-and-quartered and we’d all be living in ignorant bliss of the FACT that the earth is not the firmament around which the sun, moon, and stars revolve. Is this the type of light you seek to bring to humanity through your stubborn assertions that some moldy, old tome is the infallible pinnacle of all knowledge?
If I asserted that invisible blue bunny-rabbits existed and you told me this was a ridiculous idea, would I dismiss your ‘lame excuses’ for not believing in the bunnies or never attempting to ‘get familiar’ with the bunnies as easily as you blow off others’ legitimate life philosophies? I wonder if I might not show a bit more Christian behavior towards my fellow man.
These scientists no one’s ever heard of, met, or spoken to have one major advantage over your god’s word… their claims are supported by repeatable, documented evidence!
In fact, there is only one single part of your whole egotistical rant I agree with, and that’s your quote by Adolf Hitler: "If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough and often enough the people will believe it."
Christianity is the biggest, most widely perpetrated lie in the world, and you’ve obviously fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
(Excuse the length of my first post, I just couldn't sleep until I'd at least gotten THAT much off my chest.)
quote:However, I still hold my position as far as Nations as a whole go. The Us. by far is the largest Christian Nation and the most prosperous.
quote:Really? Do you think there is a relationship? The US population is 1.65 times the size of the Brazilian population, but the gross national product per capita is 7.33 times greater. Yet strangely the proportion of Christians in Brazil is greater than in the US.
Perhaps, like some I know (I grew up in a rigid presbyterian community in Scotland) you do not regard Brazil as truly Christian because it is predominantly Roman Catholic.
Brazil is about 80% Roman Catholic. The USA is about 56% Protestant, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10% (1989) The proportion of Christians is equal between countries. The US GDP is +.3% with per capita GDP of $36,300 Brazil's GDP is 1.9% with per capita GDP of $7,400
quote:Let's look at Malawi - a strongly presbyterian, almost entirely Christian nation. Let's compare to, say, a Muslim nation of similar size? Now perhaps you would think I was cheating if I chose one of those oil-rich Muslim nations. So I'll choose Mali - another African nation, with 11 million people, overwhelmingly Muslim.
Strange to say, Mali's GNP per capita is 1.3 times that of Malawi
Mali has a GDP of -1.2% compared to Malawi's +1.7% Both countries are heavily dependent on foreign aid. 54% of Malawi's population is below the poverty level compared to 64% of Mali. Per capita GDP is about $200 more in Mali Malawi is Protestant 55%, Roman Catholic 20%, Muslim 20%, indigenous beliefs 3%, other 2% Mali is Muslim
quote:So, I don't know what you were trying to say, but if it was that their is some correlation between Christianity and the wealth of a nation, think again.
Consider the many factors in the cited countries that affect prosperity. Even Saudi Arabia, with its strong oil based economy, sports only a $10,600 GDP per capita with GDP growth of +1.6%. The prosperity isn't reaching the working class, being relatively little better than that of Brazil. No nation comes close to the prosperity of America where Christianity is predominant, but FREE to pursue the blessings the Bible promises. Even strongly Catholic nations lack the freedom necessary for that level of prosperity.
There is no biblical reason for a Christian to apologize for slavery. Jesus didn't condemn it. His disciples didn't. Moses didn't. Moses wrote rules for proper treatment of slaves. Slavery is a fact of life for some humans, a condition that comes upon people lacking the blessings of God in their societies, yet find mercy towards continued survival in servitude to others. People get the form of government they deserve, and slavery is in effect a form of government. Slavery has served to actually preserve entire groups of people that otherwise might have vanished from the earth. All enslaved people eventually become incorporated into the society that enslaved, yet able to retain their own distinct identity.
quote:The point I was trying to make is that the Bible is not fallible. Obviously the people that read it are, but what about all of the little nook and cranny cryptic prophesies that have already come to pass and the ones that are occurring right in front of our eyes such as Jerusalem's fight over land?
quote:Well, the trouble with a cryptic prophecy is that it is just that - cryptic. Give me a nice straightforward unassailable prediction anyday!
Bible prophesy is mostly if not all very directly stated prophecy in great detail accompanied by many fulfillments to the letter ofthose prophecies.
quote:It is interesting, for example, that the Baha'i feel they can very effectively demonstrate that their religion fulfills Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian and Jewish prophecies. Fulfilling cryptic prophecies lies so much in the interpretation that it really is of little use. I would, quite literally, put no faith in such things.
[b]Bahai is too late, coming along after almostall the Bible prophecies were literally fulfilled.
I used the UN figures, but I'll have a look at the CIAs.[B][QUOTE]Brazil is about 80% Roman Catholic. The USA is about 56% Protestant, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10% (1989)[/B][/QUOTE]
How accurate do you think this yearbook is? It's amazing to see that the US's premier intelligence agency publishes information on the US population which is 23 years out of date!! Al-Qaida have little to worry about, I suspect.
[B][QUOTE]The US GDP is +.3% with per capita GDP of $36,300 Brazil's GDP is 1.9% with per capita GDP of $7,400[/B][/QUOTE]
And you give some figures for Mali / malawi that are different from mine. And I can go to the World Bank site http:\\www.worldbank.org and find the following:
GNI Mali=$210 Malawi=$170
But you have missed the point of the post entirely, which was simply to point out that there is no necessary correlation between Christianity and wealth - not now or at any time in the past. One could, for example, argue the following: the wealthiest nations in the world were previously the western european nations, especially those like Britain which had Christianity as an established state religion. The current wealth and power of the US demonstrates that the benefits of western classical liberalism, economic policy, democracy and, yes, Christianity, are the roots of this success, but the American experience shows that having a wider mix of religions and not having Christianity as a state or official religion is the path to even greater prosperity. As I say, one could argue it, but it would be a waste of time. To claim a correlation between wealth and Christianity is not only fallacious and futile, it is worse - a degradation and distortion of the Gospel message.[B][QUOTE]People get the form of government they deserve, and slavery is in effect a form of government.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure Nero would have agreed with you. Those early Christians had it coming! But seriously, your comments on slavery are disgraceful. Are you really saying that slavery is or was a good thing? Slavery continues in this world even today and it is an appalling institution that abuses millions. To defend it in Christian terms is a disgrace - to refuse to condemn it, little better. The Christian mandate includes the imperative to preach deliverance to the captives, not to tell them they are being preserved by the benevolence of others.[B][QUOTE]Bible prophesy is mostly if not all very directly stated prophecy in great detail accompanied by many fulfillments to the letter ofthose prophecies.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeh right. Examples? [B][QUOTE]Bahai is too late, coming along after almostall the Bible prophecies were literally fulfilled.[/B][/QUOTE]
Says you. They say otherwise. It will be interesting to see what distortions you introduce to support your "fulfilled prophecies" ... I am very much looking forward to them.
[This message has been edited by Mister Pamboli, 10-18-2002]
quote:How accurate do you think this yearbook is? It's amazing to see that the US's premier intelligence agency publishes information on the US population which is 23 years out of date!! Al-Qaida have little to worry about, I suspect.
The website states that information available as of 1 Jan. 2002 was used to update its pages. The 2000 Census was incorporated. The Census doesn't repeat some questions less than 25 years apart if the data is considered relatively constant. The 2001 Barna study supports the religion figures enough to not warrant adding more religious questions to the official Census. What the UN has to say about the US is often distorted, promotd by constituents not favorable to the US. The US is not far from dropping out of the UN, pending continuance of biased agendas on the part of the UN at large. I don't know anyone in the States who would trust the organization, including our government. We tolerate it. Christians distrust them immensely, ever since they declared America atheist, ignoring the data. It made the front page of newspapers, but built a great wall between the US and the UN. However, I see you think highly of an organization lacking willpower to actually do something important in the world, such as back up its nearly ten years of resolutions against Iraq. All they do is posture. America takes care of business. I think they are virtually useless.
quote:WS:The US GDP is +.3% with per capita GDP of $36,300 Brazil's GDP is 1.9% with per capita GDP of $7,400
quote:And you give some figures for Mali / malawi that are different from mine. And I can go to the World Bank site http:\\www.worldbank.org and find the following:
GNI Mali=$210 Malawi=$170
Now you publish figures that damage the picture you were trying to present. The GNP (=GNI) of the Christian nation is, according to your data, twice that of the Muslim nation.
quote:But you have missed the point of the post entirely, which was simply to point out that there is no necessary correlation between Christianity and wealth - not now or at any time in the past. One could, for example, argue the following: the wealthiest nations in the world were previously the western european nations, especially those like Britain which had Christianity as an established state religion. The current wealth and power of the US demonstrates that the benefits of western classical liberalism, economic policy, democracy and, yes, Christianity, are the roots of this success, but the American experience shows that having a wider mix of religions and not having Christianity as a state or official religion is the path to even greater prosperity. As I say, one could argue it, but it would be a waste of time. To claim a correlation between wealth and Christianity is not only fallacious and futile, it is worse - a degradation and distortion of the Gospel message.
Possibly thousands of fine books have testified over the years to the relationship between prosperity and the kind of freedom that follows unfettered Christianity. It's pointless to attempt refuting such a large concensus, as it is also a matter of history. Also a matter of history is the loss of power, prosperity, and honor when a nation forsakes God while claiming in word only they remain friendly toward the Gospel while adopting clearly unbiblical politics. Many once powerful, wealthy nations of Europe lost their grandeur upon departing from biblical Christianity. Their grand church monuments to 'the world that was' cannot help them, their temples empty.
It is also a matter of both history, fact, and common sense that most nations claiming Christianity are not practicing biblical Christianity as a nation. You should be able to locate many current witnesses who travel to such places, who are not inspired over what the people of those lands actually do in relation to what God instructs men to do. For instance, even though Mali claims a high proportion of Christian population, AIDS is overcoming them, as well as many other social problems. They exhibit little if any model of Christianity, remaining the "tail and not the head", beggars depending on the world for support. That isn't the case in America. Enough Christians in America ARE doing biblical mandates, continuing to model Bible principles, supporting much of the world in many ways. American Christianity by far outnumbers all other religions in America combined, leaving those other groups in a very small minority with little influence on our culture.
As far as the gospel and prosperity is concerned docrinally, there is no contradiction. Abuse of wealth is contradictory, should a person make an idol out of money, loving it, personifying money and its power (termed "Mammon"). Some people do that,including some Christians, who have yet to learn the lesson of such folly. It is God who gives power to get wealth for the purpose of establishing His Kingdom (Deu. 8:17). Nothing has changed about that willingness of God, for He still rains blessing on the just and the unjust. What men do with what God gives is the test of their love for God. Those who do well with such power are blessed among nations. Some oil-rich nations such as Saudi Arabia bring in vast fortunes, but the populations at large don't benefit from that, remaining in poverty in the midst of great wealth. The rich hoard the wealth, building castles and waging terrorism, oppressing their own, and their neighbors.
quote:WSeople get the form of government they deserve, and slavery is in effect a form of government.
quote:I'm sure Nero would have agreed with you. Those early Christians had it coming!
The government of the Christians was and is upon the shoulders of Christ. Those were TRUE Christians, made aliens in their own land, commanded to submit to the laws of men, rulers. They got the government they deserved due to their faith, now permanent members of the Kingdom of God. What I had in mind, though, was the slavery of Isreal and Judah because of their spiritual adultry. It served a purpose, not only to once again confirm prophecy from God does come to pass, but preserved those people through their punishment years, and resulted in a world-wide dispersing similar to several other dispersals.
quote:But seriously, your comments on slavery are disgraceful. Are you really saying that slavery is or was a good thing?
I believe what God instructed in the Bible. In it there is no condemnation of slavery. God allows Satan to employ slavery as a tool to ultimately deal with people to suit God's plan for them. Many Christians have been captured in the past, resulting in exposure of the gospel of Christ to their captors. In many cases there was no likelihood of any free man bringing the good news to a people. That generation of Christians might be sacrificial, even martyrs, but the Gospel gets preached in every place on earth that way. The Jews were taken to Babylon for 70 years. Their influence on their captors was profound, as in the case of Daniel before the king.
In ealry American history the Dutch traders discovered how African tribes often warred against each other, taking captives as slaves. It was the tribal chieftans who offered those slaves for sale to the Dutchmen. I think that was ultimately better for those slaves than becoming meals for theie enemies, or suffering untold miseries the balance of their lives in some distant African village, shamed and abused. At least in America they had monetary value, and usually were treated well, never cannibalized, rarely tortured for the sake of vengeful hatred. The Dutch invested heavily in those slaves, redeeming their investments with profit in America and other nations. In time some slave owners became prosperous enough to forgo their own investment, setting slaves free, sometimes prematurely to the detriment of ignorant people not able to survive on their own. MANY slaves chose to remain indentured, as have slaves done over the millennia in every continent. Moses even made a way for slaves to become part of the Jewish family, setting the rules for treating them properly. They sanctioned slavery by providing a way for families to get out of debt by assigning a family member to become indentured o another family member or creditor until the debt was satisfied. I think that would be a better system than allowing people to escape their duties by declaring bankruptcy, often plunging right back into debt.
quote:Slavery continues in this world even today and it is an appalling institution that abuses millions. To defend it in Christian terms is a disgrace - to refuse to condemn it, little better. The Christian mandate includes the imperative to preach deliverance to the captives, not to tell them they are being preserved by the benevolence of others.
Preaching deliverance is designed to get a person into right relationship with God. It can be expected that such a relationship would preserve a believer's peace or enhance his ability to endure hardship in the midst of voluntary service to the Lord in missions. That could include being taken captive as a slave. The Christian is instructed to be satisfied with that. Should such a person find themselves in the midst of a land of rebellion, he can expect to be swept up in a nation-wide enslavement, though not necessarily so. Even though much of Israel and Judah were carried off, some remained in the land all along.
The fact is that neither Jesus nor His disciples condemned slavery. They instructed concerning the manner of living with it. Slaves and slave owners alike were instructed as to righteousness. If slavery itself is wrong, it woul;d have been wrong then, being condemned in the Law. But it wasn't. You add to the gospel, sir. What remains wrong is the rebellion against God's Word concerning the treatment of slaves.
quote:WS:Bible prophesy is mostly if not all very directly stated prophecy in great detail accompanied by many fulfillments to the letter ofthose prophecies.
quote:Yeh right. Examples?
No problem. In fact, there is a great one concerning my above examples of the Jews in slavery.
Prophesied: Isaiah 44:28 "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid."
Fulfilled: 2 Chron. 36:23 "Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the Lord God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The Lord his God be with him, and let him go up."
There are hundreds of such prophecies and their direct completions.
quote:WS:Bahai is too late, coming along after almostall the Bible prophecies were literally fulfilled.
quote:Says you. They say otherwise. It will be interesting to see what distortions you introduce to support your "fulfilled prophecies" ... I am very much looking forward to them.
Bahai got its start a few millennia too late, between 1844-1921, to make any sense concerning their claims about Bible prophecy. Those prophecies were mostly fulfilled by the time of the birth of the Church at Pentecost.
"(bä´häzm, bhä´zm) (KEY) , religion founded by Baha Ullah (born Mirza Huseyn Ali Nuri) and promulgated by his eldest son, Abdul Baha (1844–1921). It is a doctrinal outgrowth of Babism, with Baha Allah as the Promised One of the earlier religion. Baha’ism holds that God can be made known to man through manifestations that have come at various stages of human progress; prophets include Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha Allah. Baha’ists believe in the unity of all religions, in universal education, in world peace, and in the equality of men and women. An international language and an international government are advocated. Emphasis is laid upon simplicity of living and upon service to the suffering. The teachings spread in the 20th cent., particularly in Africa. The center of the faith in the United States is the great house of worship at Wilmette, Ill. The administrative center of the world faith is in Haifa, Israel, the site of Baha Allah’s tomb. There are some 5 million Baha’is in the world, with the largest communities in India and Iran. Prior to the Iranian revolution (1979) there were about 1 million Iranian Baha’is, who, despite widespread societal discrimination, had generally prospered. Under the Iranian Islamic republic, which regards the religion as an Islamic heresy, Baha’i religious institutions were closed and property confiscated. Baha’is were removed from government posts, thousands were imprisoned, and several hundred were executed." http://www.bartleby.com/65/ba/Bahaism.html