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Author Topic:   Slavery in the Bible
Matt Tucker
Inactive Junior Member


Message 16 of 40 (72331)
12-11-2003 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by CygnusX
12-06-2003 1:27 AM


3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
1st of all, Jesus would go to Hell for doing what he did just as you would go to heaven believing what you believe. Both aren't happenin'. God does not retract stateents concerning slavery in the New Testament. Third, there are no OT / NT contradicitons in the Bible. There are no contradictions period. All the common "contradictions" that are set forth are easily remedied. A large amount are remedied by simply looking at the culture in which the author lived and recognizing that he was in a culture writing to a culture.
Matt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by CygnusX, posted 12-06-2003 1:27 AM CygnusX has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-11-2003 4:27 PM Matt Tucker has not replied

  
Matt Tucker
Inactive Junior Member


Message 17 of 40 (72332)
12-11-2003 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by CygnusX
12-06-2003 1:27 AM


3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
1st of all, Jesus would go to Hell for doing what he did just as you would go to heaven believing what you believe. Both aren't happenin'. God does not retract stateents concerning slavery in the New Testament. Third, there are no OT / NT contradicitons in the Bible. There are no contradictions period. All the common "contradictions" that are set forth are easily remedied. A large amount are remedied by simply looking at the culture in which the author lived and recognizing that he was in a culture writing to a culture.
Matt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by CygnusX, posted 12-06-2003 1:27 AM CygnusX has not replied

  
Matt Tucker
Inactive Junior Member


Message 18 of 40 (72333)
12-11-2003 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by CygnusX
12-06-2003 1:27 AM


3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
1st of all, Jesus would go to Hell for doing what he did just as you would go to heaven believing what you believe. Both aren't happenin'. God does not retract stateents concerning slavery in the New Testament. Third, there are no OT / NT contradicitons in the Bible. There are no contradictions period. All the common "contradictions" that are set forth are easily remedied. A large amount are remedied by simply looking at the culture in which the author lived and recognizing that he was in a culture writing to a culture.
Matt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by CygnusX, posted 12-06-2003 1:27 AM CygnusX has not replied

  
Matt Tucker
Inactive Junior Member


Message 19 of 40 (72334)
12-11-2003 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by CygnusX
12-06-2003 1:27 AM


3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
1st of all, Jesus would go to Hell for doing what he did just as you would go to heaven believing what you believe. Both aren't happenin'. God does not retract stateents concerning slavery in the New Testament. Third, there are no OT / NT contradicitons in the Bible. There are no contradictions period. All the common "contradictions" that are set forth are easily remedied. A large amount are remedied by simply looking at the culture in which the author lived and recognizing that he was in a culture writing to a culture.
Matt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by CygnusX, posted 12-06-2003 1:27 AM CygnusX has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by AdminBrian, posted 12-11-2003 4:34 PM Matt Tucker has not replied
 Message 22 by Rei, posted 12-11-2003 4:59 PM Matt Tucker has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 40 (72335)
12-11-2003 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Matt Tucker
12-11-2003 4:24 PM


Re: 3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
quote:
Third, there are no OT / NT contradicitons in the Bible. There are no contradictions period. All the common "contradictions" that are set forth are easily remedied.
Really?
What kind of animal is a bat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Matt Tucker, posted 12-11-2003 4:24 PM Matt Tucker has not replied

  
AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 40 (72338)
12-11-2003 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Matt Tucker
12-11-2003 4:24 PM


Re: 3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
Hi matt,
Are you having problems posting your reply, you seem to have posted the same message various times here?
Please be careful when hitting the reply button?
If you require any assistance please let me know.
Thank you.
AdminBrian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Matt Tucker, posted 12-11-2003 4:24 PM Matt Tucker has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 22 of 40 (72344)
12-11-2003 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Matt Tucker
12-11-2003 4:24 PM


Re: 3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
quote:
Third, there are no OT / NT contradicitons in the Bible. There are no contradictions period. All the common "contradictions" that are set forth are easily remedied.
Let's just compare *two* passages, shall we (don't use NIV, because NIV alters what the original texts say to try and iron out the contradiction). In fact, I'll only list a *few* of the contradictions between these *two* passages:
How many were the sons of Arah, 775 or 652?
How many were the sons of Pahath-moab of the sons of Jeshua and Joab, 2,812 or 2,818?
How many were the sons of Zattu, 945 or 845?
How many were the sons of Bani, 642 or 648? (or is it Binnui?)
How many were the sons of Bebai, 623 or 628?
How many were the sons of Azgad, 1,222 or 2,322?
How many were the sons of Adonikam, 666 or 667?
How many were the sons of Bigvai, 2,056 or 2,067?
How many were the sons of Adin, 454 or 655?
How many were the sons of Bezai, 323 or 324?
How many were the men of Bethel and Ai, 223 or 123?
How many were the sons of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, 725 or 721?
How many were the sons of Senaah, 3,630 or 3,930?
How many singers (the sons of Asaph) were there, 128 or 148?
How many sons of the gatekeepers (the sons of Shallum, the sons of Ater, the sons of Talmon, the sons of Akkub, the sons of Hatita, the sons of Shobai, in all - 139 or 138?
In passages Ez. 59/60 and Nh. 61/62, is the total 652 or 642?
How many singing men and women were there in Ez. 65/ Nh. 67 - 200 or 245?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Matt Tucker, posted 12-11-2003 4:24 PM Matt Tucker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Matt Tucker, posted 04-14-2004 10:46 PM Rei has not replied

  
Manning
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 40 (72566)
12-12-2003 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Matt Tucker
12-11-2003 4:24 PM


Re: 3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
Matt Tucker, I assume your reply was intended for me. First, what does your very first sentence mean? It doesn't make much sense at all. Second, I realize God does not retract statements, thats why I am asking what they are doing there in the first place. You say there are no contradiction in the bible, fine, I'm not saying that this is a contradiction. Finally, you say that God would not retract statements on slavery that I'm assuming he wrote or placed there. Then you go onto say that I must view the writing in an historical/cultural context. That seems a little contradictory to me.
I appreciate your reply but you haven't answered anything. You've simply explained contradictions using a circular arguement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Matt Tucker, posted 12-11-2003 4:24 PM Matt Tucker has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 24 of 40 (72567)
12-12-2003 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Matt Tucker
12-11-2003 4:24 PM


Re: 3 Problems With Your Post + An Answer
quote:
1st of all, Jesus would go to Hell for doing what he did just as you would go to heaven believing what you believe. Both aren't happenin'. God does not retract stateents concerning slavery in the New Testament. Third, there are no OT / NT contradicitons in the Bible. There are no contradictions period. All the common "contradictions" that are set forth are easily remedied. A large amount are remedied by simply looking at the culture in which the author lived and recognizing that he was in a culture writing to a culture.
Your literalism just vanished in a puff of your own logic. You might want to take note of that. If you're under no obligation to read the Bible as if it were written for you today with the intent that you take every word literally, then why do you feel the need to embrace a literal creation? (correct me if I'm wrong, you appeared to be a literalist until I noticed this one)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Matt Tucker, posted 12-11-2003 4:24 PM Matt Tucker has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 40 (75120)
12-25-2003 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Manning
12-05-2003 10:16 PM


Slavery, the real thing
Manning,
I have also been reading the laws regarding slavery, and inquired of God what He had in mind, as we are commanded to do. He began by complaining about our persistent tendency to look at everything from a temporal, carnal perpective, instead of being spiritually minded. He noted that all men are in fact born into slavery, to the devil, who inherited us all as slaves because of what Adam did. He wants us all to saved (from this slavery) and to come to the knowledge of the truth, which sets us free permantly. Both natural and spiritual slaves who get freed are often pursued and recaptured, so we need the truth to keep freedom.
Now, it often happens that spiritual freedom can most readily be gotten by our becoming a natural slave. ("He who loses his life for My sake will find it, etc.") This happens at all sorts of levels, becoming as a little child, becoming a disciple or servant, but for some, real slavery where the owner is a law-abiding, God-fearing person works best. The way the laws are written, the slavery is temporary and redemptive, corrective, liberating in both the temporal and eternal worlds. Beating slaves? Hey, strokes that wound drive out evil. It's like beating children with a rod. God tells us that we aren't going to kill them, and that we will save their souls from Hell. So, faced with a choice of our children going to Hell, and our beating the Hell out of them, what are we going to do?
But what about slavery in the hands of the lawless? That's just a manifestation of the ultimate slave owner, the Devil. It's an ugly thing, and if the lawful or righteous are ruling in the land (Oh, joy, may it come to pass!), would of course be illegal. Thus, in a righteous nation, slavery (and the beating of children) would be conditional rights, based on someone's demonstration that they know and keep the laws of God. It would be like sex. If the people involved have proved they are in the right (lawful) sort of relationship, they would be free to express their sexual feelings. But, for the unlawful, the adulterous for example, sex would be illegal, a crime with punishments.
God reminded me, in all of these meditations, that the big problem in human affairs is empowering the devil. People giving in to temptations, to make slaves illegally, to indulge in immoral sexual behaviors, to dishonor parents, all of these actions empower the devil, and bring death and destruction to the land. To keep this empowerment coming, the devil of course conceals as best he can the connection between, say fornication and love growing cold. But anyone obeying Jehovah's frequent calls to stay in touch can ask for and receive understanding of how one leads to the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Manning, posted 12-05-2003 10:16 PM Manning has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Abshalom, posted 12-26-2003 4:57 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 40 (75236)
12-26-2003 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Stephen ben Yeshua
12-25-2003 2:08 PM


Re: Slavery, the real thing
Whoo hoo, finally, some real meat!
Stephen Fretwell informs us, "I have also been reading the laws regarding slavery" [I am assuming he means the Laws of Moses as regards slavery and not the secular laws of this free nation], "and inquired of God what He had in mind" [at last, someone with a direct line to the Source], "as we are commanded to do" [Daggonit, I went and misplaced that number again ... uh, 867-5409 wassit, or 867-3409, dangit].
Mr. Fretwell continues, "He [I assume 'God'] began by complaining about our persistent tendency to look at everything from a temporal, carnal perpective" [easy for a diety to say to a human], "instead of being spiritually minded." [And this, one of the most spiritual times of the year, no less.]
Mr. Fretwell assures us, "He [assuming again 'God'] noted that all men are in fact born into slavery, to the devil" [but the question, Steve, was specifically about "God-ordained" and "God-approved" forms and assignments of slavery, and "God-approved" treatment of slaves per Biblical instructions], "(the Devil) who inherited us all as slaves because of what Adam did" [and all this time I was so sure the Bible and all the Christians blamed that on Eve].
Mr. Fretwell continues, "He wants us all to saved (from this slavery) and to come to the knowledge of the truth, which sets us free permanently. Both natural and spiritual slaves who get freed are often pursued and recaptured" [beware the Old Regulator], "so we need the truth to keep freedom." [You said a mouthfull there, Mr. Fretwell. And the truth shall set you free!]
May you enjoy freedom and good fortune, Mr. Fretwell, courtesy of this secular Union of Freedom known as the United States of America.
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 12-26-2003]
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 12-26-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-25-2003 2:08 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-26-2003 5:29 PM Abshalom has not replied
 Message 28 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-27-2003 9:16 AM Abshalom has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 40 (75240)
12-26-2003 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Abshalom
12-26-2003 4:57 PM


Re: Slavery, the real thing
Abshalom blesses me with:
"May you enjoy freedom and good fortune, Mr. Fretwell, courtesy of this secular Union of Freedom known as the United States of America."
I do enjoy freedom, after many, many years escaping required school attendance and an economic system that kept requiring more and more slavery from me. As, of course, we became more and more secular. How many families today can support themselves with one paycheck? How many parents are free to invest themselves raising their children?
But, as a professional truthist, I learned the rules for getting closer to the truth, applied them to my life, and have few "have to's" in my life today. And lots of choices. But there's always room for more, so thank you for the blessing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Abshalom, posted 12-26-2003 4:57 PM Abshalom has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 12-29-2003 3:32 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 40 (75301)
12-27-2003 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Abshalom
12-26-2003 4:57 PM


Lost His number?
Hey, Abshalom,
You mentioned that you had lost your dial-up connection to your heavenly Father, so in my last visit with Him, I asked about you. He got this wistful look in His eye, and looked hopefully down the HTH. Then He sighed, and we went back to planning the party I wanted to have with my friends.
Just thought you'd want to know, in case you've been considering changing your name. To Adshalom.
In truth,
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Abshalom, posted 12-26-2003 4:57 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 40 (75555)
12-29-2003 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Stephen ben Yeshua
12-26-2003 5:29 PM


How many families today can support themselves with one paycheck?
Not many - as a result of rent and housing prices skyrocketing in an uncontrolled free market. Heh, I'd be happy if taxes were my largest expense. I have some control over what happens to that money in a democracy. But the landlord keeps forgetting to ask me how to spend the ridiculously large checks I keep having to write him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-26-2003 5:29 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-30-2003 11:37 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 40 (75812)
12-30-2003 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by crashfrog
12-29-2003 3:32 AM


slavery plus shame
To be slave to a exploitative master is one bad thing. But to be able to walk away from that slavery, and not do so because I have been tricked into thinking that I am free, as worse. To lack both freedom, and the sense to know it, that's a shame.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 12-29-2003 3:32 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by crashfrog, posted 12-30-2003 5:37 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
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