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Author Topic:   evolution of judaism
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 1 of 82 (146774)
10-02-2004 3:41 PM


In my readings of the bible, i have noticed a theological shift. towards the earlier books and some other selected texts, Judaism seems a more naturalistic (i hesitate to say pagan) religion with a whole pantheon (God of gods) but one special God who should be worshipped alone. This theological spin seems to show this one special God as the source for all things: good, evil, creation, destruction... the entirety of the universe flowed from His mouth. Also, good and evil really are only rules for man to follow. God can do all things. For example, in 2 Samuel 24, it says that God made David sin so that he could punish Israel. Job seems to follow this particular knowledge (as hasatan is an angel called the tester... man's adversary, but not God's). This knowledge seems more monotheistic to me than the next.
Characteristics:
~many lesser gods (ba'al etc. real gods but not right for worship)
~one special God who alone should be worshipped
~hasatan is an angel
~God is source of all, including both good and evil
~'evil' seems to be a quality of man... i.e. a subjective construction of human society. God gave us rules to live by... He does not necessarily have to follow them.
In later books (the shift seems to occur just following the Babylonian captivity), God is seen as only the source of good and the religion takes on a more dualistic slant. The 'evil one' comes into existance and becomes God's adversary in addition to man's. For example, the same story of David and his census now lists satan as the cause of the sin (1 Chronicles 21). This theology persists in modern Christianity. It seems uncomfortably polytheistic... that there is a chance that God could lose... And also, the laws of good and evil seem to supercede God Himself and he must follow them. God can only do good things.
Characteristics:
~God is the only god
~satan is a warring entity and is God's adversary and man's
~God is only good and the source of only good.
~evil is a rule of all things and above God. God must be good.
*EDIT*
caps added for the moose. only for you.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-02-2004 02:52 PM
*EDIT*
elucidation
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-03-2004 02:27 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-02-2004 3:46 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 5 by AdminNosy, posted 10-02-2004 9:08 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 8 by almeyda, posted 10-07-2004 7:00 AM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 9 by JasonChin, posted 10-07-2004 8:17 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 10-10-2004 4:14 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 82 (146776)
10-02-2004 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
10-02-2004 3:41 PM


Sheesh, another person all but unable to use the shift key
It's a simple thing. It's a good thing for the message format.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-02-2004 3:41 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-02-2004 3:50 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 3 of 82 (146777)
10-02-2004 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
10-02-2004 3:46 PM


Re: Sheesh, another person all but unable to use the shift key
*grumbles*
i hate shifting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-02-2004 3:46 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-02-2004 4:22 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 4 of 82 (146788)
10-02-2004 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by macaroniandcheese
10-02-2004 3:50 PM


Re: Sheesh, another person all but unable to use the shift key
I hate messages deficient in capital letters.
I'm going to defer to other admins on this one. One of them can promote message 1 as the new topic (as they see fit).
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 5 of 82 (146858)
10-02-2004 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
10-02-2004 3:41 PM


Ok I'll try
Ok so I've been reading my bible a lot lately and i was struck with an interesting phenomenon whereupon the Jewish faith seems to shift from a more naturalistic (I hesistate to say pagan for fear of getting flamed) religion used to define why things are starring a whole pantheon of gods but one main one who was special (God of gods)to one of a more dualistic good and evil, heaven and hell, God and the big satan religion which doesn't gel at all with the earlier version.
This paragraph (and it should be a separate paragraph with a blank line) might be beter this way:
In reviewing the old testament I see:
1) a time of a pantheon of gods
2) a time with one god supreme in a multitude of them
3) a time of monotheism
Each of the above should have biblical references tucked in. I think you mean that by the time of 3) there is an idea of satan included but that isn't clear to me.
this part
In the earlier version, God seems to be the source of all things. He created the world and it was good, He made david sin so he could cause what he wanted to happen (2 Samuel 24). but about chronicles (in a concurrent chapter it says satan made david sin, for one example), it changes (job seems to fit the earlier knowledge along with a few other books). i wanted to open this idea to discussion.
I can't make much sense of. You mention Chronicles but I think you should quote the actual chapter and verse and supply the text here so ppl don't have to run off looking for it.
Is this supposed to be more details about the stuff in the first paragraph or what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-02-2004 3:41 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-03-2004 3:27 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 82 (147015)
10-03-2004 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminNosy
10-02-2004 9:08 PM


Re: Ok I'll try
better?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminNosy, posted 10-02-2004 9:08 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 7 of 82 (147031)
10-03-2004 4:23 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 82 (148019)
10-07-2004 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
10-02-2004 3:41 PM


quote:
many lesser gods (ba'al etc. real gods but not right for worship)
They were sinning terribly during the days of worshipping Baal. Lord God of Israel specifically warned them against 'fake' gods (statues that are made by there own hands and worshipped because they are covered in gold etc). Its not about many gods. Its about sinning against there only God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-02-2004 3:41 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 82 (148036)
10-07-2004 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
10-02-2004 3:41 PM


brennakimi
Want more disturbing? How about the fact that throughout the creation story, God refers to himself as many people (I.E. "Let US create man in OUR own image").....and that the word that's inaccurately translated "God" in the English translations of the Bible, and the word which is used throughout the creation story, is "Elohim", which is the plural of "El". "El" literally means "the mighty one", but would be more accurately translated into English as "god". Conversly, "Elohim" would be more accurately translated as "godS", plural.
But I wouldn't think much of it if I were you. In fact, I view it as a reaffirmation of the concept of the Trinity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-02-2004 3:41 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by almeyda, posted 10-07-2004 8:47 AM JasonChin has replied
 Message 12 by ramoss, posted 10-07-2004 9:24 AM JasonChin has replied
 Message 14 by jar, posted 10-07-2004 10:24 AM JasonChin has not replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 82 (148045)
10-07-2004 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by JasonChin
10-07-2004 8:17 AM


Re: brennakimi
quote:
"Let US create man in OUR own image"
Thats refering to the tri-unity of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
quote:
and that the word that's inaccurately translated "God" in the English translations of the Bible, and the word which is used throughout the creation story, is "Elohim", which is the plural of "El". "El" literally means "the mighty one", but would be more accurately translated into English as "god". Conversly, "Elohim" would be more accurately translated as "godS", plural.
There still 'gods'. Because they are 'gods' that other nations worshipped at the time. But go read Habbakkuk 2:18-20. Or Judges 2:11-15. Lord God of Israel, and Gentiles is against all these gods. Because they are false gods. We see religions like that still today, in hinduism, among others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by JasonChin, posted 10-07-2004 8:17 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by JasonChin, posted 10-07-2004 8:59 AM almeyda has not replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 82 (148049)
10-07-2004 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by almeyda
10-07-2004 8:47 AM


Re: brennakimi
No, you misunderstand me.........throughout the creation story, every time you see "God", it's actually a mistranslated version of "Elohim" and should be translated as "gods".
For instance, it should read "In the begining, the gods created the heavens and the Earth." "And the gods said, 'Let Us make man in Our own image."
But I agree that it's just a reference to the Trinity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by almeyda, posted 10-07-2004 8:47 AM almeyda has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 12 of 82 (148053)
10-07-2004 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by JasonChin
10-07-2004 8:17 AM


Re: brennakimi
Actually, the particular passage you quote doesn't show that. If you loko at it in the original Hebrew, while 'Elohim' is plural, the verb after it is in singular format. This is a technique in Hebrew that
magnifies the importance of the noun. It was done with David and Moeses too, but no one thinks it was refering to more than one David, or more than one Moses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by JasonChin, posted 10-07-2004 8:17 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 13 of 82 (148055)
10-07-2004 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by JasonChin
10-07-2004 8:59 AM


Re: brennakimi
It is not a reference to the Trinty. The concept of a trinity is not in the old testament. Deutronimy says 'Hear Oh Isreal, the lord our god, the lord is ONE." It does not say 'The lord is many". It does not say
'The lord is 3 in one". It says ONE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by JasonChin, posted 10-07-2004 8:59 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by JasonChin, posted 10-07-2004 10:52 AM ramoss has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 82 (148065)
10-07-2004 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by JasonChin
10-07-2004 8:17 AM


Re: brennakimi
IMHO, all that is shown in those passages is the Royal We. Even today that is common among royalty. Look at formal statements from any monarch.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 82 (148072)
10-07-2004 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ramoss
10-07-2004 9:28 AM


Re: brennakimi
It is not a reference to the Trinty. The concept of a trinity is not in the old testament.<<
Right, which would make it prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ramoss, posted 10-07-2004 9:28 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-07-2004 1:31 PM JasonChin has replied
 Message 21 by arachnophilia, posted 10-08-2004 3:35 AM JasonChin has replied
 Message 82 by ramoss, posted 11-01-2004 9:49 AM JasonChin has not replied

  
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