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Author Topic:   Why would the apostiles have lied?
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 177 (19629)
10-11-2002 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by compmage
10-11-2002 8:43 AM


Originally posted by Hanno:
First of all, the Inquisition was a false church. The bible refers the the church as everyone that believed. In the time of Galileo, The "church" was a bunch of holy cows, pretending to do Gods will, and abusing their powers. Fortunatly, the reformation returned to the Bible as the word of God, and rejected the pope.
They were just as much Christians as you are. It is all a matter of interpretation.
You might think of the reformation what you like, but the reformation also gave you the right to believe what you believe without persucution. It was beneficial for christianity, and non-christians,because it prevented people from claiming to be representing God on earth.
The fact is that the vast majority of Christians in the world are still Roman Catholic. Protestants are guilty of much evil as well, they are far from being innocent either.
Second of all. what exactly are you trying to say? Galileo said what his torturers forced him to say. So? Does that mean that the apostles said what their torturers forced them to say? If this is what you are saying, then you are saying that it was infact the Roman Legion that invented Christianity.
When Rome adopted Christianity it incorporated much of its old beliefs into it as well. Modern Christianity is quite different than it was before the 3rd or 4th centuries. If you take a closer look at all of your Christian rites and rituals you will see that none of them are actually Christian in origin, but taken from older pagan belief systems. Even Christmas is pagan in nature, from the date choosen (The pagan celibration of the Winter Soltice (Michealmas)), to Christmas trees.
Even weddings aren't traditionally Christian either, but are Pagan as well. What the Christians did was marriages which is in fact a contract where the item being bought is the woman.
Let's call it quits. I won't think any lesser of you, just because you didn't have the last word. You failed to convince me, and I failed to convince you.
It is irrelevant if I "convince" you or not. The important thing is that the truth comes to light. Since you are a TRUE believer evidence and the truth mean nothing to you if they contradict your beliefs.
It's a stale mate. That's why I wanted to end the debate earlier on, but the remarks you made about me afterwards forced me to continue. The question is, how long do you want this pointless "debate" to continue?
Actually, you lost even before you started. You just don't realize it yet.
You yourself said there is no proof available to disprove the bibles account, so it can go both ways.
When did I say this?
Whether we end this now or later, you will think of me as a poor gullible fool, and I will think of you as someone I need to pity. No further arguement is going to change that.
I'm not the one who needs pity. You live a life and morality based on fear of what your so-called loving god may do to you if you commit the least "sin". You have a twisted idea of what love is. It is either unconditional or it means nothing. That is what truly deserves pity.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 8:43 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 4:26 PM nos482 has not replied
 Message 98 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 5:23 PM nos482 has replied

  
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Director
Posts: 12998
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Message 92 of 177 (19640)
10-11-2002 12:08 PM


I would not like to see this thread spiral out of control. I congratulate the participants for keeping discussion within reasonable limits to this point, but I can sense the frustration level rising.
Please keep the focus on the issues under discussion, support your arguments with evidence and/or reasoned discussion, and avoid personalizing the debate. The topic is the veracity of the apostles, not the personal foibles of the participants. Please be tolerant, even of intolerant attitudes.
------------------
--EvC Forum Administrator

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 93 of 177 (19641)
10-11-2002 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by compmage
10-11-2002 8:43 AM


Hanno,
I thought these two posts were worthy of response;
Gene90:
quote:

The problems with your premise are (1) you can't be absolutely sure these characters who would supposedly have lied were real and (2) other people have died for religions you don't believe in.

Compmage
quote:

You are assuming that the authors of the gospels were actually eye witnesses. Care to provide some supporting evidence?

Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 8:43 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 5:01 PM mark24 has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 94 of 177 (19657)
10-11-2002 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nos482
10-11-2002 10:25 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------
You live a life and morality based on fear of what your so-called loving god may do to you if you commit the least "sin". You have a twisted idea of what love is. It is either unconditional or it means nothing. That is what truly deserves pity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you don't make the same kind of misguided and unfounded conclusions when you're doing your scientific research. You'll play right into the hands of the creationists. And if your idea of Gods love is that He must turn a blind eye to all the injustices commited in this world, and just accept the wrong doers unconditionally....
I'm glad God isn't really like that. Imagin meating Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin in heaven. Go figure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You yourself said there is no proof available to disprove the bibles account, so it can go both ways.
When did I say this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, maybe you didn't SAY it, but you didn't provide any historical documentation that describe the "true origens" of Christianity either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nos482, posted 10-11-2002 10:25 AM nos482 has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 95 of 177 (19659)
10-11-2002 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Percy
10-11-2002 9:40 AM


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your argument for accepting such stories is that the apostles wouldn't lie, but men lie all the time, and with much less motivation than promoting or preserving their position as head of a budding religious movement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here is why I don't buy this. Every time someone compares the apostles to known liers, they leave out some of the detail.
Arguement 1:
Many religious fanatics today blindly believe in lies
True, but they believe that which was passed down to them. They did not actually SEE what they believe. The apostles weren't just believing some story that was passed along to them, they were eye witnesses of what they saw. (At least, they claimed to be) So they would've known if they were telling lies. An ordinary religious fanatic, would not.
Arguement 2:
"...but men lie all the time, and with much less motivation than promoting or preserving their position as head of a budding religious movement."
Ok. but how many will knowingly lie, while knowing it is going to cause them the following pain:
*Poverty
*Being whipped (with the iron pieces at the end of the whip. I don't know what this kind of whip is called in english)
*Being thrown into jail
*Possibly be crussified or thrown to the lions or being burned as streatlamps. (Nero did this)
And also knowing that all they had to do to make the above go away, is to stop telling the lie.
The arguement go in circles, because everytime when it is claimed that the apostles lied, the above is ignored.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
How can you say this, when you believe the religious tales of all other religions are false? How could these false tales which other religions hold holy have grown if people did not "easily add to them?"
----------------------------------------------------------------
They started of as a lie, and since then, they didn't change much, because they are believed to be truthful and holy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 10-11-2002 9:40 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Percy, posted 10-11-2002 10:01 PM compmage has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 96 of 177 (19660)
10-11-2002 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by mark24
10-11-2002 12:25 PM


They claimed to be witnesses. Therefore, there are only two possibilities:
1. They told the truth, and therefore was witnesses.
2. They lied, and they knew it.
And, I for one, find it increadibly hard to believe that someone would knowingly tell a lie, if that lie causes them so much hardship. Well, I know I wouldn't. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp?
----------------------------------------------------------
other people have died for religions you don't believe in.
----------------------------------------------------------
They were not witnesses to what they believe in, and therefore could not know they were believing a lie. No one would die for his religion if he knew it was a lie. In fact, it would be his religion.
Had Muhammed died a marter because of what he was teaching, I might have been more compeled to believe he did actually speak to Gabriel. It would've showed beyond reasonable doubt that he believed in what he was teaching, and since he was the one that claimed to have witnessed Gabriel, this revelation would have been proved beyond reasonable doubt. (No offence intended to Muslims. I'm simply sharing my religious views, and as you know, in the Bible it says that Jesus is the only path to salvasion. And since Muhammeds teachings contradict this, I cannot believe him.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by mark24, posted 10-11-2002 12:25 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by mark24, posted 10-11-2002 5:11 PM compmage has replied
 Message 126 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-12-2002 12:32 PM compmage has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 97 of 177 (19662)
10-11-2002 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by compmage
10-11-2002 5:01 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Hanno:

1. They told the truth, and therefore was witnesses.
2. They lied, and they knew it.

3. They were inventions.
4. They were reinterpreted by others (you don't have ANY original scripts)ad nauseum until the original message was lost, or were made to fit other accounts.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 5:01 PM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 5:54 PM mark24 has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 98 of 177 (19664)
10-11-2002 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nos482
10-11-2002 10:25 AM


----------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, the Inquisition was a false church. The bible refers the the church as everyone that believed. In the time of Galileo, The "church" was a bunch of holy cows, pretending to do Gods will, and abusing their powers. Fortunatly, the reformation returned to the Bible as the word of God, and rejected the pope.
They were just as much Christians as you are. It is all a matter of interpretation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsence. Their teachings were not even based on the Bible. If calling youself a Christian was the only criteria for being a
Christian, then even Adolf Hitler could've been a Christian.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact is that the vast majority of Christians in the world are still Roman Catholic. Protestants are guilty of much evil as well, they are far from being innocent either.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly how much do you know about the church history? The only reason why the Catholic Church still exists today, is because of the counter-reformation, in which the Catholic church did away with many non-Christian teachings and practices. There wouldn't have been a counter-reformation if the Catholic church did not fear that the Protastant church would take over.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
If you take a closer look at all of your Christian rites and rituals you will see that none of them are actually Christian in origin, but taken from older pagan belief systems. Even Christmas is pagan in nature, from the date choosen (The pagan celibration of the Winter Soltice (Michealmas)), to Christmas trees.
Even weddings aren't traditionally Christian either, but are Pagan as well. What the Christians did was marriages which is in fact a contract where the item being bought is the woman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
So what? I know this. This is cultural bagage. People married long before Christianity. The apostles regulated marrage, the did not invent it. And as for Christmas, it is hardly a Christian day anymore. It is nice to celebrate Chirsts birth on this day, but I know that it was the Christians that adopted it, It wasn't prescribed by Jesus. The reason why Christianity could adopt these things, s because Christianity is not about rules. Rules what you may eat, what you must celebrate, what you should pray, etc. It is adaptable to cultures, without taking out the meaning of christianity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Protestants are guilty of much evil as well, they are far from being innocent either.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why I don't judje people, based of church denominations. All denominations and religions has true believers on one side, and hipocrites on the other. However, It was the protestants that broke the dictatorial grip of the Catholic Church on Europe.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not the one who needs pity. You live a life and morality based on fear of what your so-called loving god may do to you if you commit the least "sin". You have a twisted idea of what love is. It is either unconditional or it means nothing. That is what truly deserves pity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Just out of interest. Were you a bully when you were little? You seem to like to mock people. AND I DO NOT FEAR GOD! DON'T BE RIDICULOUS! WHY SHOULD I FEAR GOD IF HE ADOPTED ME AS HIS CHILD AND PAYED FOR MY SINS??? You have a very distorted view of what Christianity is about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nos482, posted 10-11-2002 10:25 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by nos482, posted 10-11-2002 6:10 PM compmage has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 99 of 177 (19667)
10-11-2002 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by mark24
10-11-2002 5:11 PM


-------------------------------------------------------------
They were inventions.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Been there, done that. If Nazism still exist 2000 years from now, It could be possible that the oldest documentation they have on Adolf Hitler would be at least from 70 years after his death. And I bet if you had live in those times, you would propably think the Nazis came before the mith of Hitler, wouldn't you? Of cause, we who lived 70 years after Hitler would not notice that a false historical figure has been created in our history books. Yes. One day, there was no Hitler, and 70 years later the Nazis had us believe that he was their founder, and we happily place Hitler in our History books. And you would say the Communists dreamed up Carl Marx and Stalin. And heck, while we're at it, the Americans created the mith of George Washington and the founding farthers as well. This is exactly what you are doing. All of this just because the evidence we have is not sufficiant for you. So if you don't have enough documentation, would you always claim the founders of a movement were dreamt up by the movement itself? We have the biblical documentation that christianity was spreaded by the apostles. If you want to refute this, the onus is on you to come up with a decent theory on the origins of Christianity, with some historic documentation to back you up.
Otherwise, those "theories" (hypothesis, whatever nos485. You know very well what I mean) are unprovable speculations. It is more likely that the claimed founders founded the movement, than for the movement to dream up a founder. If the oldest documentation of Jesus we have were from 700 AD, then your arguement would have counted. But the oldest documentation we have of Jesus is within the livespan of first and 2nd generasion Christians, and there is no way they could have forgotten who brought Christianity to them.
Please, if this isn't proof enough for you, it certainly is for me. So there is no point in trying to convince me of the possiblity that the apostles did not exist. If you're going to raise that idea again, I reply with the above again....if I reply again. If you know the awnser you'll get, please don't post the question. Unless ofcourse, if you get some strange satisfaction from me repeating myself. >sigh<

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mark24, posted 10-11-2002 5:11 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by mark24, posted 10-11-2002 6:11 PM compmage has not replied
 Message 102 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 6:15 PM compmage has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 177 (19668)
10-11-2002 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by compmage
10-11-2002 5:23 PM


Originally posted by Hanno:
Nonsence. Their teachings were not even based on the Bible. If calling youself a Christian was the only criteria for being a
Christian, then even Adolf Hitler could've been a Christian.
Yes, Hitler was a Christian. He believed that he was doing god's work.
Exactly how much do you know about the church history?
Enough to know that it is a bunch of nonsense. The question is how much do you actually know that isn't the "official" version?
The only reason why the Catholic Church still exists today, is because of the counter-reformation, in which the Catholic church did away with many non-Christian teachings and practices. There wouldn't have been a counter-reformation if the Catholic church did not fear that the Protastant church would take over.
I don't think that the RCC has all that much to fear. Viva la counter-reformation!
So what? I know this. This is cultural bagage. People married long before Christianity.
Marriage is not a wedding. They are two different things.
The apostles regulated marrage, the did not invent it. And as for Christmas, it is hardly a Christian day anymore. It is nice to celebrate Chirsts birth on this day, but I know that it was the Christians that adopted it, It wasn't prescribed by Jesus. The reason why Christianity could adopt these things, s because Christianity is not about rules. Rules what you may eat, what you must celebrate, what you should pray, etc. It is adaptable to cultures, without taking out the meaning of christianity.
Christianity isn't about rules!!!!! Man, what bible have you been reading. The thing is nothing but rules and most of them are don'ts
That's why I don't judje people, based of church denominations. All denominations and religions has true believers on one side, and hipocrites on the other. However, It was the protestants that broke the dictatorial grip of the Catholic Church on Europe.
The trouble is tell who is whom.
Just out of interest. Were you a bully when you were little?
No, I wasn't a bully when I was little.
You seem to like to mock people. AND I DO NOT FEAR GOD! DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!
Yes, you do fear you god, afterall you are a good god fearing Christian.
WHY SHOULD I FEAR GOD IF HE ADOPTED ME AS HIS CHILD AND PAYED FOR MY SINS???
Jesus never claimed to be god, only god's messenger. It is those like you who make this false claim.
You have a very distorted view of what Christianity is about.
Maybe you should leave the forest sometimes to get a better look at the rest of the trees.
I was raised in a very religious home, one without the oppresion that is. I knw what I am speaking of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 5:23 PM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 6:53 PM nos482 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 101 of 177 (19669)
10-11-2002 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by compmage
10-11-2002 5:54 PM


Hanno,
re. 3.Inventions.
Not good enough, provide independent, non-religious evidence that the apostles existed, or they are simply part of a (non) self evident religious text.
I suspect a supporter of Hitlers existence in 2,000 years would be able to provide a multitude of independent evidence, outside of the "Hitler Exists; I've No Evidence, But You'd Be A Fool Not To Believe It" book. I think you'll find there's plenty of evidence supporting the other historical characters you mention, as well.
& no 4 remains unanswered.
"4. They were reinterpreted by others (you don't have ANY original scripts) ad nauseum until the original message was lost, or were made to fit other accounts."
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 5:54 PM compmage has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 102 of 177 (19670)
10-11-2002 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by compmage
10-11-2002 5:54 PM


Let's recap. We had:
1. They were lying. This arguement has been going back and forth from the beginnig.
2. They did not exist. This too, has been going back and forth from the beginnig.
I'm getting tired of this debate. The same qustions, and the same awnsers over and over again. I want to end this debate, but then you're going to say "Oh, the Christian got scared and ran away." like you did before. So please. Do not post any more questions which you know how I would awnser them, and which I awnsered over and over again. If my awnser isn't satisfactory for you, than it wouldn't help asking the same question again. If someone have anything to say that hasn't been said before, by all means.
And nos485, there is no need to become personal. If you feel I irritate you, and that this debate is going nowhere, you have no oblication to awnser. I notice a suttle mocking in your posts. If I'm wrong, tell me so. I don't know what you're trying to achieve with that. You're not making me embarrassed or doubtfull of my religion in any way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 5:54 PM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 6:25 PM compmage has not replied
 Message 104 by mark24, posted 10-11-2002 6:25 PM compmage has replied
 Message 108 by nos482, posted 10-11-2002 7:28 PM compmage has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 103 of 177 (19672)
10-11-2002 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by compmage
10-11-2002 6:15 PM


If a may abuse this forum a little. Do anyone of you know something about the settings of internet explorer? I need to display an Excel graph in it, and lately it only display an Image holder. Do anyone of you know which setting I need to change to get this thing to display my graph?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 6:15 PM compmage has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 104 of 177 (19673)
10-11-2002 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by compmage
10-11-2002 6:15 PM


Hanno,
You started the debate, so please provide independent non-religious evidence that the apostles existed, OR all you have is a self proclaiming text.
I've got a copy of "Genetics, Paleontology, & Macroevolution" on my desk, by JS Levinton. I need no further evidence that macroevolution occurred, because my book says so. Ok by you?
And you STILL haven't attempted no.4.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 10-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 6:15 PM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 6:35 PM mark24 has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 105 of 177 (19675)
10-11-2002 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by mark24
10-11-2002 6:25 PM


I don't mind. Evolusion is a well thought through theory. However. That book you have isn't going to help you much it the next live(Just to make you happy, i'll add "if there is one"), so it doesn't really matter if it's true or not. The bible doesn't says "Though shallt not believeth in evolution", you know. If you've read my last posts on evolution, you'll noticed I've moved from "creationist sympothyser" to "Neutral".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by mark24, posted 10-11-2002 6:25 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by mark24, posted 10-11-2002 6:49 PM compmage has replied
 Message 109 by nos482, posted 10-11-2002 7:30 PM compmage has not replied

  
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