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Author | Topic: Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled | |||||||||||||||||||||||
caldron68 Member (Idle past 3840 days) Posts: 79 From: USA Joined: |
quote: Since the beginning of time there have always been screw-balls that have believed that they are living in the 'end times'. Their time has passed and your time will pass and nothing will come of it. You'll just have to leave it to future generations to believe that 'they' are living in the end times.
quote: Oh please..... Who created Satan? Why would a loving, caring, compassionate god create the ultimate in evil and then allow this evil to torment his own beloved creation? It makes no sense, it's complete bunk and all of it should be relegated to the dust bins of history. Have a decent dayCaldron68
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4369 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange.
Since the beginning of time there have always been screw-balls that have believed that they are living in the 'end times'.
All begin 'end times' the moment of birth.The God's Words suggest time does not end. Their time has passed and your time will pass and nothing will come of it.
The 'end time' of mortal life will come of it.
You'll just have to leave it to future generations to believe that 'they' are living in the end times.
Whether they believe the Truth is their decision. They will be living in their 'end times'.
Oh please..... Who created Satan?
Lucifer
Why would a loving, caring, compassionate god create the ultimate in evil and then allow this evil to torment his own beloved creation?
He would not.
It makes no sense, it's complete bunk and all of it should be relegated to the dust bins of history.
The present opinion concedes. One Love Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary The Apostle of the Skeptics writes:
"...picture me alone in that room ... night after night, feeling ... the steady, unrelenting approach of Himwhom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me."
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caldron68 Member (Idle past 3840 days) Posts: 79 From: USA Joined: |
quote: He did and he still does. Are you not familiar with the book of Job? God proves a point to Satan by allowing Satan to take everything from Job, wife, children, health, etc... Just so God can say, See! I told you Job was a good man. Well gosh! God knew Job was a good man. There was no reason to prove this point to Satan. If I were God at that point and time, I would have told Satan to go suck an egg. There was no reason why God should have allowed Satan to do what he did to Job. Sure, God made it all good again after he proved his point, but at what cost? Job's wife? Dead. Job's children? Dead. What about those people? What about their hopes and dreams? Does Job not mourn for his wife and children? How can God make that right? Seems like God likes to play fast and loose with emotions and with human life in general. A fairly cavalier attitude, don't you think? Cheers,--Caldron68
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4369 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange Caldron68.
Caldron68 writes: Bailey writes: He did and he still does. Caldron68 writes:
He would not. Why would a loving, caring, compassionate god create the ultimate in evil and then allow this evil to torment his own beloved creation? Past events may become sensible when the Truth is considered. The God enacts decisions based on motivating impulses of Love. He is incapable of doing otherwise.
Are you not familiar with the book of Job? Indeed.
God proves a point to Satan by allowing Satan to take everything from Job, wife, children, health, etc... He does not enforce evil or Love. The God makes One point - Job's spirit does not belong to death. He naturally proceeds salvaging the infected being.
Just so God can say, See! I told you Job was a good man. Well gosh! God knew Job was a good man. The present opinion suggests it the one way to secure Job's spirit. The God likely cares less of recognition via diobedience. It seems less helpful than one may think it.
There was no reason to prove this point to Satan. Was there another way to secure Job's spirit? How else could Job continue Life?
If I were God at that point and time, I would have told Satan to go suck an egg. lol - I feel ya ... Providing He did not have to turn His other cheek, the God may likely punch 'em in the face.
There was no reason why God should have allowed Satan to do what he did to Job. Other than it not being His responsibility. Imagine what the world would be like without boils ...Yet, realistically, is the God an avon representative? The present opinion suggests another in charge of cosmetics. He does not does not save your body, but rather your Life.
Sure, God made it all good again ...
Thank you for conceding this.
... but at what cost? Job's wife? Dead.Job's children? Dead. What about those people? What about their hopes and dreams? Does Job not mourn for his wife and children? How could he not? Yet, surely they are united ... The hopes and dreams of Job and his family lay reconciled in continuation of Life. Better to live with chicken pox for 100 years than, after One, die without them.
How can God make that right?
You have suggested, against all odds, He did. This opinion concedes ...
Seems like God likes to play fast and loose with emotions and with human life in general. The present opinion asserts mankind plays fast and loosewith emotions and lives of individuals within the species. You would disagree?
A fairly cavalier attitude, don't you think? Indeed. Yet one that human moral authority maintains. One Love
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caldron68 Member (Idle past 3840 days) Posts: 79 From: USA Joined: |
Bailey writes:
Thank you for the response Bailey :-)
Thank you for the exchange Caldron68.
Bailey writes:
I've heard this one before. In another thread I had a fellow tell me that I didn't have God's perspective and thus should not have an opinion one way or the other. i.e., don't judge God's actions.
Past events may become sensible when the Truth is considered. The God enacts decisions based on motivating impulses of Love. He is incapable of doing otherwise.
The problem is that actions always speak louder than words. We didn't have Hitler's perspective either, but it is generally agreed that his actions spoke volumes about his overall character. The same holds true for the God of the OT. How can we possibly not pass judgment on his actions when his actions are absolutely gut wrenching? We sentence people to death for killing another human, especially a child. Not so with God, even though he is the one that gave us the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". Personally I don't think an emotion like 'love' can even be considered in the equation when the directive to Saul is to kill em' all, including their animals.
Bailey writes:
Good point! God does not enforce evil or love. Not sure how this fits with your previous statement about God acting on impulses of love. In this story it is clear that God does not LOVE Job. If he did, he would not allow Satan, a character that God obviously does not like, to touch one single hair on Job's body.
He does not enforce evil or Love. The God makes One point - Job's spirit does not belong to death. He naturally proceeds salvaging the infected being.
It was clear from the beginning of the story that Job's spirit did not belong to death. Job was a solid, God fearing man and God knew it. There was no need for the 'demonstration'. But then again, it is just a story isn't it.
Bailey writes:
Other than it not being His responsibility. Imagine what the world would be like without boils ...Yet, realistically, is the God an avon representative? The present opinion suggests another in charge of cosmetics. He does not does not save your body, but rather your Life.
Not his responsibility? Why not, he allowed Satan to get to Job, how is it not his responsibility to protect Job from Satan? That's like saying that it's not your responsibility or fault if you let the murderers out of jail and they end up killing some poor innocent person. It most certainly was God's responsibility and it remains his responsibility if any pain or suffering is inflicted on a person by Satan. God did create a world without boils and every other nasty thing that we can think of. Unless you think that boils and flesh-eating viruses existed in the Garden, too. God created these kinds of nasty things because in his eyes he sees man as a damned sinner! Oh, and it's not just Adam and Eve that are damned sinners, it's every single one of their offspring too! Not only that, but the curse holds even after God wipes the face of the planet clean with a horrible flood. Hmmmm.
Bailey writes:
The hopes and dreams of Job and his family lay reconciled in continuation of Life.
Yeah, except that this time around Job now has TWO wives!!! I wonder how the first wife, in her continuation of life, feels about Job and God in general? Dear God, thanks for terminating my life. Because of you my husband, Job, now has a new cute little wife. I guess in Heaven it's ok to have more than one wife. Maybe the Mormons are right after all. HA!
Bailey writes:
The present opinion asserts mankind plays fast and loosewith emotions and lives of individuals within the species. You would disagree?
Well, yes I would. Certainly SOME men play fast and loose with the lives and emotions of others, but that's exactly why we have laws, law enforcement officials and a criminal justice system. We punish those that play fast and loose with the lives of others. Not so for God. He can command us not to commit murder and then go ahead and wipe out a whole planet worth of souls. No wonder certain religions feel that it's perfectly fine to just kill those that don't agree with their demented reasoning. They've got such a great role model! Cheers,--Caldron68
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
caldron68 writes: Yeah, except that this time around Job now has TWO wives!!! Hi Caldron. Welcome to EvC. I suppose you're assuming that Job has two wives by the statement that Jehovah gave him twice as much as he had previously. Likely the statement is referring to material things etc. We don't know for sure when Job lived. It is likely he lived shortly after the flood when humans still lived for centuries. Job's first and likely only wife is the most likely mother of his second family. I can't verify my opinion but neither can you verify yours. I don't intend to debate about it as it's not the topic here. Back to topic; have you read Ezekiel, chapter 35 through chapter 39? I believe if you read them with an open mind you will see that the latter times of this age are emerging upon the planet. I believe it's chapter 36 or 37 that states that this prophecy is for the latter days and in 38 the invasion is to unwalled villages which was not the case in ancient times. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: So lets look at Ezekiel 35 again to see how far we have to go to find something you disagree with:
quote: Oh right. Verse 1. You don't like to admit that the prophecy is supposedly delivered as words direct from God. That way you can blame the prophet for the differences in the text. Oh, and you think that delivering the message to Ezekiel is a big mistake, too. And that's just verse 1....
quote: Mount Seir is the border between Judah and ancient Edom. It seems to be on the Eastern side of the Jordan, in Jordanian territory. Oh wait a minute, you think that it somehow refers to the West Bank Palestinians. Why exactly would God choose a landmark that is not even in the West Bank to refer to the West Bank Palestinians ?
quote: There doesn't seem to be anywhere important to devastate in the region now. If we take it to include all of ancient Edom, it includes parts of Egypt and Israel as well as Jordan.So you think that God is going to punish the Palestinians by killing Israeli settlers in the Negev while leaving the Palestinian territories untouched ? Oh I think I forsee another retreat by Buzsaw, defeated by the Bible yet again
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caldron68 Member (Idle past 3840 days) Posts: 79 From: USA Joined: |
Buzsaw writes:
Hi Buzsaw, thanks for the reply.
Hi Caldron. Welcome to EvC. I suppose you're assuming that Job has two wives by the statement that Jehovah gave him twice as much as he had previously. Likely the statement is referring to material things etc. We don't know for sure when Job lived. It is likely he lived shortly after the flood when humans still lived for centuries.
I stand corrected. Jobs wife is only mentioned once in the book of Job and in that instance she questions why Job does not curse God for the nasty things that he has let happen to job. BTW, I looked this up some time ago, but I believe that the events described in the book of Job happened 1400 years after the flood. I know this because I participated in a thread where the OT believed that the behemeth described in the book of Job was actually a dinosaur and another poster believed that dinosaurs were carried on the ark and only died out because of environmental changes brought on by the global flood. 1400 years later, of course, the dinosaurs finally died out. Right!!! Cheers,--Caldron68
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: 1 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me saying, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh right. Verse 1. You don't like to admit that the prophecy is supposedly delivered as words direct from God. That way you can blame the prophet for the differences in the text. Oh, and you think that delivering the message to Ezekiel is a big mistake, too. Perhaps if God spoke to the ancients in terms of modern warfare as we know it they would have no idea of what was prophesied. Perhaps God wanted to have the message proclaimed in terms which the world would understand. Up until modern times nobody would know what explosive weaponry was. Perhaps also by the time this Armageddon event happens horses will be the means of invasion. This is highly likely. Ezekiel 38 says the invasion will be like a cloud covering the land. This may possibly be indicative of an airlift of troops and horses with rocket launchers which launch rockets, i.e. arrows. I don't know, Paul, but given all of the evidence that this invasion looks very do-able with the nations (especially the phenomenal event of the regathering and reinstatement of the nation of Israel) all in place as the prophecy states, I'm not going to be too worried by the horse/bow/arrow problem. One should also consider the corroborating modern wonders such as the emerging world government, world monetary system of marks and numbers, weather phenomena, moral decline, apostasy from Biblical principles, global expansion of the gospel of Jesus as he prophesied and much more, all of which enforce the OT prophecies relative to the return of Israel after dispersion and messianic kingdom of Jehovah. Ezekiel is just one of a number of significant prophets who add pertinent end time information to the Ezekiel prophecy which we are discussing here. The reason I chose the Ezekiel chapters cited here in this thread is that they have the most significant sequence of events regarding the reemergence of Israel which has always been claimed by the prophets as the messianic nation to host the world Zionist kingdom on mount Zion. Furthermore, the prophet Daniel as well as the NT prophet John tell us that the abominable antichrist phenomena will stand at the holy place of Jehovah which is undeniably, Mt Zion/the temple mount where the Islamic Dome of the Rock stands today. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PaulK writes: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir, and prophesy against it
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mount Seir is the border between Judah and ancient Edom. It seems to be on the Eastern side of the Jordan, in Jordanian territory. Oh wait a minute, you think that it somehow refers to the West Bank Palestinians. Why exactly would God choose a landmark that is not even in the West Bank to refer to the West Bank Palestinians ? OK here's my answer to your problem: As I continually try to remind, you will never get a handle on the prophecies or any doctrine in scripture by cherry picking isolated scriptures to fit your preconceived notions. You must apply all applicable scripture in order to come up with the truth. All you need do is read the whole chapter 35 here which you cite. Now when you get to the last verse of this chapter, verse 15, you have your answer. "....so will I do unto you: you shall be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Edom, even all of it; and they shall know that I am Jehovah." Isn't this what I've been saying; that the modern Palestinians are largely the descendents of Edom? Well, here Edom is implicated along with Mt Seir. I see no problem in that. After all, thousands of years have passed since the prophecy and some things are not exactly as they were back then, but we see these enemies of Israel East and south of Israel claiming Israel as theirs just as the prophet of Jehovah for told millenniums ago. BTW, Mt Seir is considered as part of Edom according to Wikipedia:
Mount Seir (Hebrew: -”; Har Seir) formed the south-east border of Edom and Judah, it may also echo the older historical border of Egypt and Canaan.[1] It was the mountainous region allotted to the descendants of Esau, the Edomites. Mount Seir is specifically noted as the place that Esau made his home (Genesis 36:8; Joshua 24:4). Unless I missed it, nobody has refuted my claim that the Palestinians are largely the ancient Edomites. I believe Edom is pretty much desolate today as the prophecy states and the remnants of their descendents are the Palestinians. If they are not descended form Edom, who are they descended from?? The Edomites became nomadic and moved around. I believe Edom is part of Jordan today, as is the area of the ancient Amenities where the Palestinians are now, so the Edomites moved around into Judah and up into Jordan over the centuries. They are not favored by Jordan as I understand, and by anyone, for that matter so they have ended up where they are today.
PaulK writes: There doesn't seem to be anywhere important to devastate in the region now. If we take it to include all of ancient Edom, it includes parts of Egypt and Israel as well as Jordan.So you think that God is going to punish the Palestinians by killing Israeli settlers in the Negev while leaving the Palestinian territories untouched ? Wherever Edomites/Palestinians are, Edom will become desolate. It has been partly fulfilled in the southeast. It will be completed. The Palestinians claim two nations, their's and Israel, just as the prophet so accurately DIVINELY prophesied -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Caldron, all anyone can do is guess when Job lived. That he is aware of the dinosaurs and that he lived long enough to have two families makes me believed he lived shortly after the flood.
This all is another topic and I will not be responding to any more on this. Some of my stuff on this can be found in the archives by a search as I've been with EvC over five years now. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: In other words you are suggesting that God said things that were not true.
quote: So God is also very BAD at writing things in a way that the readers would sort-of-understand. Using a cloud as a simile hardly indicates an airborne force, references to bows and arrows are not good descriptions of rocket launchers. Also an airlift of horses is a pretty odd idea. Finally you are now suggesting that the events will happen at some unspecified future time - after horses reenter common military use.
quote: OF course you aren't worried about it. Just as you aren't worried that Ezekiel 35 is about ancient Edom or that the return from exile in Ezekiel almost certainly refers to the Babylonian exile. (You say that God wanted the ancient Jews to understand the prophecies - obviously they would consider a prophecy of a return from exile as predicting their return from their current exile, unless there was something to tell them otherwise - and there isn't). But that's because you don't care about what the Bible says - only about what you want it to say.
quote: There isn't an "emerging world government". So THAT isn't corroborating evidence for your position.The Bible neither predicts a "world wide monetary ysstem of marks and numbers" nor is there evidence that such a system will be implemented in the forseeable future. There is no evidence in "weather phenomena" either. Claims of "moral decline" are hard to judge, especially given signs of moral improvement in other areas. It is interesting that you juxtapose claims of apostasy from "Biblical principles" with a claim that the Gospel has spread worldwide. Of course, given your attitude it is quite possible that you would see a Gospel of love and peace as apostasy. But otherwise there seems to be something of a contradiction. On the other hand the American Right does seem to be in a thorough moral decline and your perversion of Ezekiel 35 in the name of hate and murder would seem to fit both a moral decline and apostasy.
quote: I have my own hypothesis which fits the facts much better. Regardless Ezekiel 35 is certainly not about modern times, and therefore there is no good reason for you to include it at all.
quote:As I have proven - and you know that I have proven it - the Book of Daniel puts the End Times in the Hellenistic period, before Christianity let alone Islam had arisen. And Daniel's "abomination" was to be set up for only a short time. quote: You don't need to remind ME. I know it and avoid that error. Unlike you.
quote: No, it's not what you've been saying at all. It confirms what I've been saying. The prophecy is directed against ancient Edom (which included Mount Seir) and not against modern Palestinians (whose territory does NOT include Mount Seir as I pointed out).
quote: Since you are using the same sources I did, it isn't surprising that your information agrees with my case.
quote: I have done so repeatedly. And you didn't even miss it.
quote: Other Canaanite peoples, the Philistines, settlers who moved in during the Roman period (especially after the Jews were kicked out after the Bar Kochba revolt) or other people who moved in and out of the area in all the invasions and wars. There's nothing tying them specifically to the Edomites. The fact that they aren't Jews is evidence against much of a connection, too.
quote: There is no such prediction. Only a statement that the Edomites would be punished because they HAD coveted two Kingdoms (ie. IN THE PAST even to Ezekiel). Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: you are now suggesting that the events will happen at some unspecified future time - after horses reenter common military use. Change comes about alarmingly and abruptly, like the emergence of the USSOA (United Socialist States Of America). Disarmament appears to be the order of the day, nationally and globally. As for the rest of your message, so long as you choose to ignore my cited evidences that the prophecy was not about the Babylonian era and so long as you're not aware enough to realize that global world body/government, global cashless mark/number monetary systems and that the emergence of the prophesied messianic nation of Israel are not emerging, there's no point in wasting our time butting heads (as is usual trying to reason with you.) Regarding Edom, first you argue that Edom was in the wrong area to be regarded as ancestors of Palestinians. Now you're trying to claim that the Palestinians include the Philistines and other farther removed nations which are much farther from modern Palestinians than Edom. You reject Edom, adjacent/bordering and suggest instead, Palestinians and others, far removed. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I'm not ignoring it. You just don't have anything of significance. Of course YOU have ignored the evidence that the Palestinians cannot be linked specifically to the Edomites. For which you never produced any evidence of any signfiicance either.
quote: By which you mean you only want to spout your bullshit at those gullible enough to believe it. The fact is that you cannot support your assertion that any of these are occurring. You can't even find your "global cashless mark/number monetary system" in the BIble, let alone reality.
quote: I argued that the references to devastating territory within the borders of ancient Edom but outside the borders of Palestinian-held territory indicated that the prophecy was not directed at the Palestinians. And in case you haven't noticed Palestine includes the Gaza strip as well as the West Bank. You think that Gaza is far from where the Philistines lived ?
quote: Philistia overlaps with Palestinian territory, while Edom does not. Moab is no further away than Edom, just the other side of the Dead Sea. And I also take into account the history of the Edomites and of the region, which you ignore.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: Philistia overlaps with Palestinian territory, while Edom does not. Moab is no further away than Edom, just the other side of the Dead Sea. And I also take into account the history of the Edomites and of the region, which you ignore. We've been debating about who the modern Palestinians descended from. They are nowhere near Ancient Philistia, but more closely related with Edom. They are the ones cited in the prophecies as claiming two nations and the holy place/mount , including Judea, Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. They are the ones cited in the Ezekiel sequence of latter day events including the rebirth of Israel as one kingdom (Israel) (not Northern and Southern/Judah and Israel, as was the case in the days of Babylon). BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And you have produced no significant evidence to support your claim that they are Edomites.
quote: False. Gaza is part of ancient Philistia - and of the modern Palestinian state, such as it is.
quote: You have shown no evidence for this. Nor have you addressed the evidence against it that I have produced.
quote: The ancient Edomites are. Ezekiel 35 is addressed to them, telling them that they will be punished for having done so.
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