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Author Topic:   Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 131 (491649)
12-18-2008 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by PaulK
12-16-2008 1:43 AM


Re: Connecting The Corroborating Dots Four PaulK And Others
PaulK writes:
Ezekiel 34 has no clear connection to Ezekiel 35. Nor does Ezekiel 37.
PaulK, since you and others are having such a problem connecting the dots I'll help you all out with the hard empirical evidence. This phenomenal sequence of events in this prophecy is all connected to the prophesied end time messianic assembling of the nation of Israel to their own land where the messianic descendant of David will be their king/prince and dwell with them in this land.
The enemies of this messianic nation are all in place as prophesied after the land has bloomed. All that's left is the eventual invasion of the enemies surrounding Israel and others allied with them, all of whom presently wish for the fall of Israel. Then comes the prophesied advent of Messiah Jesus and Armageddon.
Many other OT and several NT prophets corroborate substantially what the prophet Ezekiel here has set forth.
CHAPTER 34.
Ezekiel 34:11,12: I will search for my sheep and search them out. ......I will deliver them out from all places which thy have been scattered, in the cloudy and dark day.
34:13: I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries; and will bring them into their own land.
34:23: My servant David, he shall feed them and he shall be their shepherd 24: And I, Jehovah, will be their God and my servant David prince over them.
34:26: ...there shall be showers of blessing. 27: and the tree of the field shall yield it's fruit, and the earth shall yield it's increase.......and they shall know that I am Jehovah.
CHAPTER 35.
3: I am against you, O Mount Sier.......v9: make you a perpetual desolation....you shall know that I am Jehovah.....v10: Because you hast said, these two nations and these two countries shall be mine and we will possess it. v14. ...Mount Seir and all Edom...
CHAPTER 36. v1: Ye mountains of Israel.......v2: because the enemy hath said against you, 'Aha, and, the ancient high places are ours in possession....v5. ....have I spoken to all of the residue of the nations and against all Edom that have appointed my land to themselves for a possession with the joy of all their heart.
v 7. ...Surely the nations that are around about you; they shall bear their shame. (that is nations around and about the mountains of Israel)
CHAPTER 37.
6. ...you (Israel) shall know that I am Jehovah. ....v12: ...I will bring you into the land of Israel...v14: I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. v21: ...I will take the children of Israel from among the nations whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side v24: And my servant David shall be king over them and they shall have one shepherd. v25: and David my servant shall be their prince forever. v26: ...and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forever.....v28: THE NATIONS SHALL KNOW THAT I AM JEHOVAH THAT SANCTIFIETH ISRAEL.
38. v8: ...in the latter years you shall come into the nation that is brought back from the sword; that is gathered out of many peoples, upon the mountains of Israel. ...they shall dwell securely, all of them...v12: ...to take the spoil and to take the prey against the people that are gathered out of the nations v23: I will make myself known in the eyes of many nations and they shall know that I am Jehovah..
CHAPTER 39.
v7: And my holy name will I make known among my people, Israel. v21: And I will set my glory among the nations and the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed and my hand that I have laid upon them. v22: So the house of Israel shall know that I am Jehovah their God, from that day and forward. v26. They shall dwell securely in their land v 27 when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies' lands and sanctified in them in the sight of many nations.
v29: I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix quoted segment
Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix emboldings

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by PaulK, posted 12-16-2008 1:43 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Coyote, posted 12-18-2008 10:39 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 95 by PaulK, posted 12-19-2008 2:23 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 92 of 131 (491650)
12-18-2008 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Buzsaw
12-18-2008 10:30 PM


Re: Connecting The Corroborating Dots Four PaulK And Others
PaulK, since you and others are having such a problem connecting the dots I'll help you all out with the hard empirical evidence.
You claim "hard empirical evidence" and all you have are bible verses?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2008 10:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2008 11:00 PM Coyote has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 131 (491651)
12-18-2008 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Coyote
12-18-2008 10:39 PM


Re: Connecting The Corroborating Dots Four PaulK And Others
Coyote writes:
You claim "hard empirical evidence" and all you have are bible verses?
No. I have painstakenly, for the past hour and a half, selected out and cited the phrases of verses which prove that these chapters are all related contrary to the claims of PaulK. Are you so thick headed or stubborn headed that you cannot comprehend that?
This not only shows that these chapters are related, Coyote, but that you wouldn't admit to any prophecy to save your soul.
(Abe: Perhaps if you want to get serious, you should reread carefully and note on your notepad how many corroborating statements there are in these chapters which tie them together)
Edited by Buzsaw, : Delete paragraph and add suggestion
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Coyote, posted 12-18-2008 10:39 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Coyote, posted 12-19-2008 12:12 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 94 of 131 (491654)
12-19-2008 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
12-18-2008 11:00 PM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
quote:
I will search for my sheep and search them out. ......I will deliver them out from all places which thy have been scattered, in the cloudy and dark day.
If this was "hard empirical evidence" it could apply to one and only one thing, unambiguously. And it would be obvious before the fact, for all time, and not just after the fact.
You are offering us a Rorschach test, a passage whose meaning can vary depending on the time period and the interpreter. That is not "hard empirical evidence." Its interpretation based on a priori belief.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2008 11:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2008 9:09 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 02-27-2009 9:57 PM Coyote has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 95 of 131 (491659)
12-19-2008 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Buzsaw
12-18-2008 10:30 PM


Re: Connecting The Corroborating Dots Four PaulK And Others
quote:
PaulK, since you and others are having such a problem connecting the dots I'll help you all out with the hard empirical evidence.
By which you mean that you are going to produce a bunch of partial quotes and put parts in bold.
quote:
This phenomenal sequence of events in this prophecy is all connected to the prophesied end time messianic assembling of the nation of Israel to their own land where the messianic descendant of David will be their king/prince and dwell with them in this land.
Then you need to show something in Ezekiel 35 that clearly relates to that.
quote:
The enemies of this messianic nation are all in place as prophesied after the land has bloomed. All that's left is the eventual invasion of the enemies surrounding Israel and others allied with them, all of whom presently wish for the fall of Israel. Then comes the prophesied advent of Messiah Jesus and Armageddon.
Given your apparent ignorance of the relevant geography you're in no position to make such a claim. Especially relevant to Chapter 35 is the fact that there aren't any Edomites as such and even the people you call Edomites aren't in Edom.
Now if your quotes from Chapter 35 are not clearly messianic your assertion of having produced "hard evidence" is false. Here it is:
CHAPTER 35.
3: I am against you, O Mount Sier.......v9: make you a perpetual desolation....you shall know that I am Jehovah.....v10: Because you hast said, these two nations and these two countries shall be mine and we will possess it. v14. ...Mount Seir and all Edom...
The only thing you've bolded seems to be a standard formula for Ezekiel, indicating that the fulfilment is to be taken as a demonstration of God's power. Looking at the English translations we can find much the same phrase in other books, including 1 Kings (20:13). Are you going to say that THAT verse is Messianic now ? Ezekiel uses it frequently - e.g. in Ezekiel 6 and Ezekiel 12 where again it is connected to the fulfilment of prophecies and NOT to a specific time. It appears in Ezekiel 30:19 as part of the (failed) prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar will devastate Egypt. Are you going to say that that is a Messianic prophecy referring to modern times ?
The rest is all about Edom, a kingdom that ceased to exist long ago, it's people lost to history. Which is a rather clear indication that it is NOT about modern times as you claim, but about a time when there was at least an identifiable Edomite people. Something that has not been the case for around 1900 years.
All you've proved is that YOU can't find a clear connection of Ezekiel 35 to 34 or 37 either.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2008 10:30 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by bluegenes, posted 12-19-2008 8:30 AM PaulK has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 96 of 131 (491666)
12-19-2008 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by PaulK
12-19-2008 2:23 AM


Exodus!!!
Things aren't quite going according to the prophet Buzsaw's plan, Paul.
http://stlouis.ujcfedweb.org/page.aspx?id=144274
quote:
Tel Aviv (dpa) - In Israel, the number of emigrants exceeded the number of immigrants for the first time in 20 years, the Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot reported Friday.
Many emigrants were recent arrivals who wanted to leave Israel again, the report said. In 2007, 14,400 immigrants are expected in Israel while 20,000 people are expected to leave the country, according to the report based on figures for the first months of 2007.
The last time emigration exceeded immigration was in the aftermath of the 1973 Yom Kippur War and in 1983 and 1984 when inflation was high.
Meanwhile the Maariv newspaper reported that approximately a quarter of the Israeli population was considering emigration.
Almost half of the country's young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said. Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a lack of confidence in the political ruling class and concern over the security situation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by PaulK, posted 12-19-2008 2:23 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2008 9:18 AM bluegenes has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 131 (491669)
12-19-2008 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Coyote
12-19-2008 12:12 AM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
Coyote writes:
If this was "hard empirical evidence" it could apply to one and only one thing, unambiguously. And it would be obvious before the fact, for all time, and not just after the fact.
Coyote, you mine out one little statement from six chapters to cite and make something of it.
I have provided hard empirical evidence that PaulK's statement is false in that he is trying to claim that these chapters are not relative to one another. That they have no connection one to another is a false statement. My message proved that these chapters are indeed related one to another concerning the regathering of the nation of Israel for a messianic kingdom.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Coyote, posted 12-19-2008 12:12 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 12-19-2008 9:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 98 of 131 (491670)
12-19-2008 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Buzsaw
12-19-2008 9:09 AM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
quote:
have provided hard empirical evidence that PaulK's statement is false in that he is trying to claim that these chapters are not relative to one another. That they have no connection one to another is a false statement. My message proved that these chapters are indeed related one to another concerning the regathering of the nation of Israel for a messianic kingdom.
As everyone can see that is a complete falsehood. You provided zero evidence that Ezekiel 35 is messianic. And, as has already been shown there is no likelihood of its being meaningfully fulfilled now or in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2008 9:09 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2008 9:34 AM PaulK has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 131 (491671)
12-19-2008 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by bluegenes
12-19-2008 8:30 AM


Re: Exodus!!!
bluegenes writes:
Almost half of the country's young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said. Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a lack of confidence in the political ruling class and concern over the security situation.
The fact is that the nation is there as prophesied and has survived all these decades in spite of rigorous opposition from it's bordering enemies as prophesied. It will be there for messiah Jesus when he shows up in the not too distant future.
So what if many are disgruntled with their government. Join the club. After a year or two of Obama, 25% or more of our own citizens may be moving to Costa Rica or elsewhere.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix quotes

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by bluegenes, posted 12-19-2008 8:30 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by bluegenes, posted 12-19-2008 2:19 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 131 (491673)
12-19-2008 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by PaulK
12-19-2008 9:17 AM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
PaulK writes:
As everyone can see that is a complete falsehood. You provided zero evidence that Ezekiel 35 is messianic. And, as has already been shown there is no likelihood of its being meaningfully fulfilled now or in the future.
PaulK, you are being so ridiculous that it's hardly worth my time. Anyone with half a brain in gear cannot deny the connection of these chapters. It's nuts to argue that 35 is not relevant to this prophecy. I've stated repeatedly that Edom has already been partially fulfilled in that the land is desolate but it's relevancy applies to this prophecy in that all of Israel's enemies will be punished by Jehovah sooner or later, including whoever the descendents of Edom are.
The Middle Eastern ancient nations all have descendents in this area and Edom is no exception. Not only that, but named nations are prophesied to desolation relative to their treatment of Israel and again Edom is no exception.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 12-19-2008 9:17 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 12-19-2008 9:48 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 105 by Nimrod, posted 01-05-2009 6:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 101 of 131 (491676)
12-19-2008 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
12-19-2008 9:34 AM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
quote:
PaulK, you are being so ridiculous that it's hardly worth my time.
Yawn. You've got no evidence. You know it, I know it. Everyone knows it.
quote:
It's nuts to argue that 35 is not relevant to this prophecy
Since you can't find the connection, it seems to be quite sane.
quote:
I've stated repeatedly that Edom has already been partially fulfilled in that the land is desolate but it's relevancy applies to this prophecy in that all of Israel's enemies will be punished by Jehovah sooner or later, including whoever the descendents of Edom are.
Then I guess He does mean to have a go at the Israelis then.
quote:
The Middle Eastern ancient nations all have descendents in this area and Edom is no exception
The prophecies are against nations. Not against the distant descendants of people in those nations who have lost all touch with that heritage. And God would have to be a sick and twisted individual to take "vengeance" in those circumstances. Certainly there's no justice in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2008 9:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 102 of 131 (491690)
12-19-2008 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Buzsaw
12-19-2008 9:18 AM


Re: Exodus!!!
Buzsaw writes:
So what if many are disgruntled with their government. Join the club. After a year or two of Obama, 25% or more of our own citizens may be moving to Costa Rica or elsewhere.
That'll leave plenty of room for the incoming Israelis, then, won't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2008 9:18 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4916 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 103 of 131 (493054)
01-05-2009 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Buzsaw
12-14-2008 1:43 PM


Re: Mid East Prophecy/Latter Times
Regarding Edom, first you argue that Edom was in the wrong area to be regarded as ancestors of Palestinians. Now you're trying to claim that the Palestinians include the Philistines and other farther removed nations which are much farther from modern Palestinians than Edom. You reject Edom, adjacent/bordering and suggest instead, Palestinians and others, far removed.
I am at a computer away from home, but if you read scholarly works such as the Anchor Bible Dictionary (which I admit I havnt done in many months) and look at entries like Idumea (sp?), Nabateans , etc. then you will find that there was a great expansion of Arabian tribes around the period 600-550 BCE and that Edom was indirectly pressured to move west.The Edomites moved quite close to Jerusalem and infact became a large part of Philistia.
Almost all Edomites became Jewish (over time)by the time of Christ.There is some debate whether the Eomites were forced to become Jewish or whether they choose to do so without much imposition.
The Anchor Bible Dictioary refers to all sorts of scholarly debates in literally hundreds of publications (footnotes show them typically in German works but many in English as well).I have also read discussions of this issue in works written since 1992.Josephus even talks about some of these issues.
It seems to me that Edomites would be mixed in with modern Jews at least as much as anybody else, and many of the modern Arab peoples (Palestinian bedouins, Jordanians, etc.) could have much blood from the invading "Arab" tribes (I forget if they were north or south Arabian- but didnt you mentioned tribes like Dedan and Sheba, didnt you?) from the period after 600 BCE and which pressured Edom.
Many Jews were of Edomite descent and it is equally true that many Jews (of various backgrounds)thereafter were equally absorbed by many respective peoples of various backgrounds and in various lands.
Back to "prophecy"
I dobnt know what one can make if the historical situations(s!) from various time periods EVEN of one masters the respective historical background from each period.
I do know that the New Testament didnt say anything about any future conflicts between Jews and Edom or between Jews and any other semitic (or Persian) people.Nothing about "mother Russia" either. Or China.
Seems to me that the events 600-550 BCE were ancient history by the time of Christ.They werent the subject of eschatology discussions or predictions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Buzsaw, posted 12-14-2008 1:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4916 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 104 of 131 (493055)
01-05-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
12-11-2008 12:23 AM


Re: Drift From Topic
Caldron, all anyone can do is guess when Job lived. That he is aware of the dinosaurs and that he lived long enough to have two families makes me believed he lived shortly after the flood.
Job has been the subject of many scholarly commentaries from north-west semitic scholars.Many books can be purchased which use the (Hebrew type)language of Job to help date the book.
There have been some interesting theories (William Albright oncementioned that he feels it was written by a north-Israelite after the fall in 721 , and promised to publish his details).Go to Amazon and look for keywords "JOB" and "COMMENTARY".The Anchor Bible Commentary was edited by Albright but he didnt write the commentary on Job.I havnt read it.
Anyway....
Nobody places the book anywhere near "the flood".
BTW, when was the flood? Abraham (if he existed, which conservative scholars tend to believe) can be easily placed at around 2000 BCE. But written records go back nearly 1000 years before that.Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilization started 1000 years before then.
But the King James places the Tower of Babel and Great Flood just a few hundred years before.
Assuming there are geneological gaps then would you place Job around roughly 20,000 BCE since you said it was just after the flood? Or around Abrahams time?
What means do you have to date Job and what do you make of the date of the Hebrew dialect it used throughout?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 12-11-2008 12:23 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4916 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 105 of 131 (493060)
01-05-2009 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
12-19-2008 9:34 AM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
The Middle Eastern ancient nations all have descendents in this area and Edom is no exception. Not only that, but named nations are prophesied to desolation relative to their treatment of Israel and again Edom is no exception.
Good grief! I have attempted to ignore all the absurd comments from Buz which claim that Islam wants "Israel" destroyed (Israel=Jews when refering to prophecy talk)
The Edomote nation (Idumea or whatever) vanished yet they were about the furthest thing from enemies of "Israel" that one can imagine.
During the middle ages 80% of Jews lived in Islamic lands (with complete freedom as opposed to the situation in fundi-Xtian Europe)) and Palestinian Jews fought alongside Musilims against fundamentlaist Christian invaders.
Odd that those same fundamentalist Christians have survived and thrived.Infact fully 99% of audio/video media (aside from the internet)in the USA (the world power) is run by Fundi-Xtians. (50 million+ right-wing radio listeners, 3 million Fox viewers,verses about 1 million PBS viewers or 500,000 MSNBC listeners).Heck we spend $715 billion per year on military spending mainly because of fundi-Christian voters and their crazed obsession with ensuring "prophecy" is fulfilled via making the Middle-east a complete mess.
Those same fundi Christians want 99% of all Jews to die (all but 144,000) by "1988" I mean "2000" I mean "2011-2018" (Van Imp's latest prediction.
The historic Jew-killers (European fundi-Christians) have thrived.
Their defenders (Muslims, Edomites, and Palestinians) have suffered.
Speaking of "Hard empirical evidence"....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2008 9:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Coyote, posted 02-21-2009 10:40 AM Nimrod has replied

  
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