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Author Topic:   Isaiah and the Dead Sea Scrolls
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 204 (198144)
04-10-2005 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
04-10-2005 8:32 PM


Does the fact that Mark, as just one example, shows significant changes that totally modifies the whole feel and content of the Gospel and that those changes came long after Isaiah have any bearing on this discussion?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 04-10-2005 8:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 04-10-2005 8:45 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 204 (198149)
04-10-2005 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
04-10-2005 8:45 PM


So you agree that the Bible has been edited and changed almost continuously and continued being edited long long after Isaiah. You are only saying that Isaiah has not be significantly edited since the Isaiah scroll?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 04-10-2005 8:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 04-10-2005 9:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 04-10-2005 10:34 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 204 (198161)
04-10-2005 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
04-10-2005 9:51 PM


I still don't understand what you're saying.
Do you agree that the Bible has been edited, revised, added to, subtracted from including both the Old and New Testament?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 04-10-2005 9:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-10-2005 10:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 204 (198166)
04-10-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-10-2005 10:36 PM


Re: I still don't understand what you're saying.
Yeah but your message #15 is simply wrong.
Shall we talk about Mark and the additions to it? If Mark, a New Testament Gospel, had significant additions made (as they were), would that influence your opinion?
For example, the early copies of Mark end at Mark 16:8. But some time later all of the mysticism and the tale of Jesus appearing to the disciples in Mark 16:9-20 was added. This significantly changed both the message of Mark and to so extent, Christianity as a whole.
Look at the added material:
9: Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10: And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11: And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12: After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13: And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14: Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20: And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
If you take that out Mark ends dramatically differently with simply a message to be taken to the disciples and no mention of Jesus actually appearing to the apostles.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-10-2005 10:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 04-11-2005 12:45 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 204 (198306)
04-11-2005 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
04-11-2005 12:45 AM


Re: I still don't understand what you're saying.
Sorry but even your sources support the contention that Mark was redacted and the verses were added in.
From your own sources:
The witness in its favour is nearly as old as that opposed.
Nearly as old. A clear admission that the older versions do not contain the additions.
The two manuscripts which they are not found in are the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, which are the two primary underlying manuscripts used in every modern version.
Once again, a clear admission that the verses do not exist in the oldest and most basic versions.
Faith, even your very own sources admit the verses were added although they go on to try to deny the fact that they just admitted. This is a classic example of the Doublethink of the Fundamentalist. They simply ignore the evidence that doesn't fit THEIR particular idea of TRUTH.
It is the basic failing that classifies and defines the YEC and Fundamentalist, ignore any evidence that doesn't meet the needs of propaganda.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 04-11-2005 12:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 04-11-2005 1:57 PM jar has not replied
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 04-11-2005 10:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 204 (198420)
04-11-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
04-11-2005 10:13 PM


Very clear but without meaning.
The clarity of what you say is not the issue.
The things you cite, such as the fact that the additions were included in later copies also carries no weight. All it shows is that the additions got copied.
The fact that there is only a small difference in time only is true from OUR current perspective. If you had been living at the time, something from 100 years earlier would be a wide gulf.
The point is everywhere we look in the Bible there are multiple, often totally contradictory versions of the story. There are two Mutually Exclusive creation myths. There are two Mutually Exclusive flood myths. There are two Mutually Exclusive Nativity Stories. There are four Mutually Exclusive accounts of the crucifixion. There are indications that Mark was redacted. Much of Isaiah was simply copied from other books.
The truths in the Bible are not the words. It is a very simple message.
By trying to force the Bible to be accurate when it comes to history, to science, to archeology or to geography is to miss the message entirely.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 04-11-2005 10:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 04-12-2005 6:41 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 173 of 204 (201489)
04-23-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
04-23-2005 2:04 PM


Re: Missing the point
Actually Faith, there still is no one list of what is Scripture and what is not within Christianity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 04-23-2005 2:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 04-23-2005 2:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 175 of 204 (201501)
04-23-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
04-23-2005 2:28 PM


Re: Missing the point
Not at all. For example most of the books of John are tossed in some canon while others include things like the Gospel of Thomas.
There is a very wide range of what is considered as Scriptual even among Christian Churches.
This message has been edited by jar, 04-23-2005 12:38 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 04-23-2005 2:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 04-23-2005 2:44 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 177 of 204 (201509)
04-23-2005 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
04-23-2005 2:44 PM


Re: Missing the point
It doesn't much matter what you consider a Christian Church, there simply are many Christian Churches. Many of the churches such as the Ethiopian Christian Church and the Syrian Christian Church are older than the Roman Christian branches. These ARE Christian Churches. They, as do others, have different canon than the Greek based branches of the Christian Church but that makes them no less Christian.
For example, Enoch and Jubilees, 3rd. and 4th. Ezra, 3 rd. Macabees are often included in the OT. In the NT you often find John 2 & 3, Peter 2 and Revelation are considered heretical while Clement and Didascalia are included.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 04-23-2005 2:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 04-23-2005 5:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 179 of 204 (201553)
04-23-2005 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
04-23-2005 5:16 PM


Re: Missing the point
By mainstream Christian Churches. For example, the Ethiopian Christian Church.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 04-23-2005 5:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
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