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Author Topic:   Tower of Babble (a bunch of baseless babble)
lfen
Member (Idle past 2964 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 166 of 198 (285977)
02-12-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Omnivorous
02-11-2006 10:48 PM


Re: It's a mystery.
I agree with you that confirmation bias is one of the foundations of illogic on which religion is based and this forum sees almost daily examples of it being used to support beliefs.

And I'm not sure I agree that religion has evolved ever better techniques. They seem pretty much the same now as they were thousands of years ago.

I don't know how to succinctly specify my ideas on this so I'll just very roughly sketch out where I'm coming from. I'm thinking of the momentum of culture and how it affects the minds (brain content etc.) of members of that culture. Religion has had thousands of years developing its function in human society compared to the the recent few hundreds of years that science has been developing.

Religion has greater appeal to the mass social culture as the two have co developed over the thousands of years of civilization. I think it will take many hundreds of years before the influences of science and rationality permeat culture to the extent that religions do today.

I say this as I've come to feel it's hopeless to show believers the defects in their reasoning. They will simply find a rhetorical patch around the logic that will allow them to continue to believe what ever unsupported but emotionally appealing belief they have come to embrace.

lfen


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 167 of 198 (285982)
02-12-2006 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by lfen
02-12-2006 3:31 PM


Re: It's a mystery.
Ifen writes:

I don't know how to succinctly specify my ideas on this so I'll just very roughly sketch out where I'm coming from. I'm thinking of the momentum of culture and how it affects the minds (brain content etc.) of members of that culture. Religion has had thousands of years developing its function in human society compared to the the recent few hundreds of years that science has been developing.

Religion has greater appeal to the mass social culture as the two have co developed over the thousands of years of civilization. I think it will take many hundreds of years before the influences of science and rationality permeat culture to the extent that religions do today.

You explained it quite well, Ifen, and I agree.


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lfen
Member (Idle past 2964 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 168 of 198 (285983)
02-12-2006 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by bibbo
02-10-2006 1:21 PM


Re: insignificant
"a man called A'taam and a woman called Iim", obviously Adam and Eve. If this story was borrowed, then wouldn't it follow that the names be exactly the same?

If this were a valid argument tell me why Christians in the US today overwelmingly talk about Jesus instead of Jeshua? Borrowing stories is not the same thing as borrowing physical objects and even physical objects can get changed, like repainting stolen cars or something.

You just learned something important but because it doesn't serve your purpose of trying to find some straw to support a myth that has no evidence to support it and lots of evidence to discredit it you come up with a requirement that is not met in the world.

This kind of repetitive rhetorical nonsensical arguing in bad faith is why I've largely given up talking to believers. You only care about rhetorical cuteness and not evidence or facts. You can support any work of myth like the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Lord of the Rings etc. by cute grasping at straws, but what is required is evidence!

lfen


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Joman
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 198 (291524)
03-02-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by quicksink
02-15-2002 8:31 AM


The Tower of Babel
(1). Why did they want to build a tower…?

To focus the people on a project that would inspire them to flock together under a “One World Government”.
Same as globalization. The method now being used is “Terrorism” which will lead to the demand for the false promise of “Peace and Security” in a secular world that seeks to be free of the bonds of Jesus Christ.

(2). Why would they build a tower in the lowlands…?

They lived there. (fertile land, with rivers, room to grow)
It was prominent there. (Same reason the twin towers were built in Manhatten and why evolutionism uses PBS)

(3). Why build a huge tower in the lowlands [except perhaps for defensive walls] where every brick had to be made from mud…?

Ease of building wasn’t the priority…flocking the sheep together was.

(4). Why wouldn’t God laugh at the futility of his subjects?

He considered confounding them sufficient for our edification.

(5a). Why has God not responded similarly to modern skyscrapers?

The destruction of the twin towers delivered a message for the wise in heart to read.

(5b). Are we expected to believe that the pile of mud bricks was way higher?

No. The height of the proposed tower was not at issue. The intent of the tower was. Similar to the height of a man’s pride not being the problem but merely the symptom.

(6). Why would God even care…?

If the people of Babel remained flocked together, (contrary to God’s command to Noah to disperse) then, Satan’s pathway to the destruction of all mankind would have remained paved. The division of languages produced the nations of the world. This division forced upon mankind by an act of God prevented the use of an “One World Government” for the subjugation of “all” of mankind under satanic rule as is now being done. The downside being that the world-wide communication of the gospel of Jesus Christ would be hindered. Satan, set up Rome with the intent of subjugating the world and for the purpose of quickly locating the promised crusher of his head and killing him. After Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven the confounding of the languages was reversed with respect to Christianity by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

(7). It's quite odd that the Chinese, in their 8000 year recorded history, failed to mention [the collapse of the tower] in any of their chronicles.

The pictograms of the Chinese people record both the ark, and tower.

(8). Perhaps they were too busy cleaning up after the global flood, which they also forgot to mention.

They were no different than mankind is today. The questioner forgot to look in the mirror and note that men are still seeking to erase the mention of the Deluge. Satan’s main purpose for evolutionism is to debunk the AV Bible with false science.

(9). Why aren't all languages spoken everywhere?

Why isn’t the same language spoken everywhere? The Bible gives you that answer straight up as I’ve pointed out. The proliferation of many distinct languages implies the ease and skill by which mankind evolved them (according to the HoE). But, no such ability is expressed today nor was there any evolutionary reason for multitudes of languages.

(10). Why did the people who got Hindi decide to move en masse to India?

They had to go somewhere. And, some people had to be the people who chose to go there.

(11). Cherokee to North America?

The nomadic people kept seeking distant lands. The city dwellers were more dominant as a people due to their innate city dweller advantages.

(12). Why did all the Hebrew speakers stick around the Middle East?

They were of the stock of Shinar peoples.

(13). How high would such a tower have to be?

High enough to be an effective govenmental project that occupied the imagination and will of the people. Similar to NASA’s pretending to aim at space travel.

(14). Could fundamentalists build one?

What is a “fundamentalist”?

(15). What about satellites, moon shots, and interplanetary missions? Haven't they already gone higher than said tower?

Yes. And, the AV Bible prophesies that man will build a space station, have orbiting sattelites, space based weapons, programmable missles, a paperless and coinless world economy and also no man will die in space unable to return for burial.

unless a creationist can prove that the tower of babble was indeed constructed, and is the origin of languages, the I take the tower of babble as proof that the bible is nothing more than fiction…

Taking this irrational position requires faith.

Joman.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 170 of 198 (291530)
03-02-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Joman
03-02-2006 2:54 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
Joman writes:

What is a “fundamentalist”?

A fundamentalist is somebody who twists the Bible to fit his preconceived notions - as you have done here. Would you like to discuss the topic point-by-point, with specific reference to Biblical accuracy?

Welcome to EvC. :D


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6803
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 171 of 198 (291533)
03-02-2006 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Joman
03-02-2006 2:54 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
quote:
Taking this irrational position requires faith.

Since you cannot possibly mean to say that it is irrational to express skepticism of a very extraordinary tale unless some kind of evidence is provided, I will assume that you are agreeing that the Tower of Babel story is irrational and requires faith. In addition, the preceding part of your post must be an attempt at irony.

I agree with Ringo: welcome to EvC. I think you might be fun.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Joman
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 198 (291536)
03-02-2006 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
03-02-2006 3:31 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
Would you like to discuss the topic point-by-point, with specific reference to Biblical accuracy?

Of course.

Joman.
.


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Joman
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 198 (291538)
03-02-2006 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Chiroptera
03-02-2006 3:52 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
"Since you cannot possibly mean to say that it is irrational to express skepticism of a very extraordinary tale unless some kind of evidence is provided, I will assume that you are agreeing that the Tower of Babel story is irrational and requires faith. In addition, the preceding part of your post must be an attempt at irony."

You have assumed wrong.

Joman.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 174 of 198 (291542)
03-02-2006 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Joman
03-02-2006 4:04 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
First, take a look at the little "peek" button at the lower right-hand corner of every post. You can see how we do the quotes and smilies and other little fripperies.

Now, shall we start our discussion at the logical place - the middle?

Joman writes:

If the people of Babel remained flocked together, (contrary to God’s command to Noah to disperse) then, Satan’s pathway to the destruction of all mankind would have remained paved.

This character, "Satan", that you mention... I don't see him in my copy of Genesis. Are you using some unusual translation? Or is this an example of what I have called "twisting the Bible for your own purposes"?

Also, it seems odd to me that you talk about this Satan's "pathway to the destruction of all mankind". Wasn't it God who did destroy (almost) all mankind just two or three chapters earlier?

... the subjugation of “all” of mankind under satanic rule as is now being done.

Once again, that is not in my Bible, nor does it seem to have anything to do with the Tower of Bable and it's historicity.

The OP suggests that the Tower of Babel story should not be taken literally. You seem to have delivered an irrelevant sermon instead of actually responding directly to any of the points. Can we dispense with adding characters, motivations, etc. and just deal with the subject at hand?

(I noticed that you also mentioned something about "evolutionists". This topic has nothing to do with the subject of evolution. Nobody's stance on the subject of evolution has any relevance to this topic.)


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 198 (291553)
03-02-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Joman
03-02-2006 2:54 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
To focus the people on a project that would inspire them to flock together under a “One World Government”.

I don't understand the hard-on conservatives have about "One World Government." What if the government was democratic? Would that really be so bad?


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Joman
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 198 (291734)
03-03-2006 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by ringo
03-02-2006 4:26 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
Ringo writes:

This character, "Satan", that you mention... I don't see him in my copy of Genesis.

The context of any Bible verse is within the context of the whole Bible.

Rev.12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

The oldest serpent known is:

Genesis 3:1-5 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

Ringo writes:

Are you using some unusual translation?

I’m using the AV Bible.

Ringo writes:

Is this an example of what I have called "twisting the Bible for your own purposes"?

I don’t know anything about the basis nor quality of your opinions.

Ringo writes:

Also, it seems odd to me that you talk about this Satan's "pathway to the destruction of all mankind". Wasn't it God who did destroy (almost) all mankind just two or three chapters earlier?

Yes.

Concerning Satan's pathway:
Mankind was commanded to…

Genesis 9:7 “… be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.”

And…

Genesis 1:28 “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”

By remaining in the land of Shinar with the desire to…

Genesis 10:4 “ And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.”

…mankind failed to begin to do as God commanded.

Genesis 10:6 "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

Note that mankind set out to begin to do their own will instead of God’s stated will. This is what put mankind in danger.

Joman writes:

... the subjugation of “all” of mankind under satanic rule as is now being done.

Ringo writes:

Once again, that is not in my Bible, nor does it seem to have anything to do with the Tower of Babel and it's historicity.

Luke 4:5 “And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6: And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7: If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.”

The devil possessed the power and the glory of all the kingdoms of the world and, that includes Babel.

Ringo writes:

(I noticed that you also mentioned something about "evolutionists". This topic has nothing to do with the subject of evolution. Nobody's stance on the subject of evolution has any relevance to this topic.

Quote #8 (of my post) implied that the global flood of Noah’s day should have been mentioned in the context of the tower of Babel story. I pointed out that mankind still today seeks to erase all mention of the Deluge. As an modern example of this I referred to the efforts of evolutionists to use their false science to debunk the AV Bible, which is in this context more specifically, the book of Genesis and the flood.

Joman.


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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3122
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 177 of 198 (291737)
03-03-2006 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Joman
03-03-2006 8:31 AM


Re: The Tower of Babeli
Well, several points.

The 'great serpeant' fits more like the levathan, rather than the snake in Genesis. From the text in Revelation, and from the text in Genesis, there is no reason to assocatite the 'serpent' in Genesis with the 'Great Serpent' in REvelation.

Second of all, when it comes to the 'allegorical' matter of 'dominion' over the beasts it is more like a 'stewardship'. It is more like being a 'farmer' over fields rather than domination.

If you understand the Hebrew, just like the tower of babel story, you would realise it is just an allegory.. with Adam is 'everyman' and eve (which means 'life' by the way), is 'every woman'.


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Joman
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 198 (291738)
03-03-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by crashfrog
03-02-2006 4:48 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
Crashfrog writes:

I don't understand the hard-on conservatives have about "One World Government." What if the government was democratic? Would that really be so bad?

One world government isn't, in and of itself, a evil thing. But, government is always a dangerous thing. Democracy provides for government by majority opinion. No matter the form of government, the danger is always; a coup d'etat. The US Constitution was designed to prevent the rule a tyrant, and/or the tyrannical rule of a branch of government. Even in the event of a well designed World Constitution the danger of a coup exists. Mankind doesn't possess the independent will, nor means to resist the will of Satan, due to his intellect and his power over the sinful nature of mankind.

Joman.


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Joman
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 198 (291759)
03-03-2006 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by ramoss
03-03-2006 8:54 AM


Re: The Tower of Babeli
ramoss writes:

The 'great serpent' fits more like the levathan, rather than the snake in Genesis. From the text in Revelation, and from the text in Genesis, there is no reason to associate the 'serpent' in Genesis with the 'Great Serpent' in REvelation.

The Revelation quote...

Rev.12:9 "...that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world..."

...states directly that, the "old serpent" is called the Devil and Satan. The phrase "old serpent" derectly associates the great dragon with the serpent in the garden of Eden.

This doesn't mean that leviathan isn't another reference to Satan however.

ramoss writes:

Second of all, when it comes to the 'allegorical' matter of 'dominion' over the beasts it is more like a 'stewardship'. It is more like being a 'farmer' over fields rather than domination.

You are free to allegoricalize the subject of dominion if you want but, I find no basis for doing so.

Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

The winds and the waves obeyed Jesus of Nazareth and were subdued by his dominion over them. He cursed the olive tree and it obeyed him. When he was asked to pay a tax he received the payment from the mouth of a fish. These are examples of the reality of dominion in that an allegorical king has no real subjects nor power. And, Jesus of Nazareth is the second Adam (allegorically speaking as well as literally).

Crashfrog writes:

If you understand the Hebrew, just like the tower of babel story, you would realise it is just an allegory.. with Adam is 'everyman' and eve (which means 'life' by the way), is 'every woman'.

That there is are allegorical aspects to stories and things doesn't negate the historicity of them. The assertion that the stories are "just" allegorical lacks justification.

The Bible I use is an English one. Nothing you've stated in your post concerning the Bible requires a knowledge of the Hebrew language for comprehension or discernment.

Joman.

Joman.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 180 of 198 (291767)
03-03-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Joman
03-03-2006 8:31 AM


Re: The Tower of Babel
The context of any Bible verse is within the context of the whole Bible.

If you start off with that premise, the discussion is going to become way too broad. Since these topics have a limited length (~300 posts), it would be best to limit your comments to the nearby context - i.e. Genesis.

I pointed out that mankind still today seeks to erase all mention of the Deluge.

Well, all "mention" of the Deluge - at least all physical evidence of it - has been erased. There isn't any. But that's a different topic. Please stick to the Tower of Babel. There are plenty of other threads where you can discuss the flood.

Note that mankind set out to begin to do their own will instead of God’s stated will. This is what put mankind in danger.

But mankind had already started out to do their own will back in the garden of Eden, when they ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was doing their own will that caused God to flood the earth.

To paraphrase the question in the OP: What made the Tower of Babel special?

ABE (Added by Edit :) ):

I should also point out that this is a science forum, not a Bible study forum (you can find that a few inches down from here). Discussions here should be about the actual evidence for the Tower of Babel - not your interpretation of the Bible.

This message has been edited by Ringo, 2006-03-03 08:57 AM


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