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Author Topic:   the day the lord died
John
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 29 (18126)
09-24-2002 10:09 AM


The following is a copy/paste from another thread where I have been discussing the crucifiction with Wordswordsman. I've been feeling guilty about derailing the topic so.... viola!

[quote][b]had aleady read that site and found their Wednesday crucifixion scenario to match up with other sources. Jesus could certainly have not been buried until Wednesday sunset, and he could have resurrected at sunset Saturday, the end of the sabbath, being available Sunday morning for Mary to encounter, leaving no partial night to deal with. Like the Blue Letter site says, it isn't stated, but there is no room for critics to say the days and nights don't add up. The tradition of accepting Friday as the crucifixion day is not a reflection of what the Bible reports, the error being in the chosen day if there is error, not in the Bible.

Notice they leave out the fact that Joseph asked for and obtained the body of Jesus late afternoon towards evening or after dark, being Thursday night anytime after sunset. Joseph first asked at even, then Pilate had the body delivered. That had to take some time. He was evidently buried Thursday night, not Wednesday afternoon. I get that from the Greek for "even" in Mt. 27:57, from Gr. opsios; late; feminine (as noun) afternoon (early eve) or nightfall (later eve) :- even (-ing, [-tide]).

Another point not considered was that Joseph had rolled a stone across the tomb that evening, leaving the two Marys on 'guard', part of their proper grieving. The next day the Jews got Pilate to set a Roman guard there which sealed the stone, so Mary's subsequent visits would have been prevented, unable to get past the stone. Besides, the burial was hasty and it wasn't reasonable for Mary to have the oils on hand for anointing the body so soon, and there was the problem of the next day being an automatic sabbath following the Passover. She might have obtained the oils quickly, but couldn't have used them until finding the guard gone. So the normal non sabbath day of Friday would not have been useful for her, being also prohibited from travelling or working on both Thursday and Saturday, leaving only Sunday as the first possible day she could maybe gain entrance, knowing eventually the guard would leave. Had she not been able to gain entrance by then the law would have prevented her touching the corruption of the 4th day. Jesus avoided that, saving Mary the daunting task of dealing with a body that would soon stink. Upon her arrival she found Jesus already out of the grave.

In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover. However, the day following Passover is a Holy Day with much the same rules as on the Sabbath. Your explaination therefore holds, with one minor change of detail. What is curious to me in light of this is why would this day be represented as the Sabbath by Jews, as any first hand witnesses would have been?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-27-2002 7:19 AM John has responded
 Message 9 by w_fortenberry, posted 09-29-2002 4:50 PM John has responded

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 29 (18408)
09-27-2002 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John
09-24-2002 10:09 AM


quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover. However, the day following Passover is a Holy Day with much the same rules as on the Sabbath. Your explaination therefore holds, with one minor change of detail. What is curious to me in light of this is why would this day be represented as the Sabbath by Jews, as any first hand witnesses would have been?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

WS: Orthodox Jew, Reformed, other? What most Jews believe and practice today doesn't match the Exodus account very accurately, having added many traditions. The lady demonstrates ignorance of the topic, though, besides probably not observing Passover week biblically.

The Passover was part of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which feast lasted 7 days. According to Exodus 12 every Feast day was a Sabbath or an High Day. This meant that the Passover month or week that there was an extra Sabbath besides the weekly Sabbath. That should explain to your satisfaction the Sabbath or High Day that occurred in the week of Christ's crucifixion.

Judaism 101: "Occasionally, Pesach begins on a motzaei Shabbat, that is, on Saturday night after the sabbath has concluded. This will occur in the year 5761 (2001). This complicates the process of preparing for Pesach, because many of the preparations normally undertaken on the day before Pesach cannot be performed on Shabbat." http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by John, posted 09-24-2002 10:09 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by John, posted 09-27-2002 11:40 AM Wordswordsman has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 29 (18428)
09-27-2002 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Wordswordsman
09-27-2002 7:19 AM


quote:
WS: Orthodox Jew, Reformed, other?

Non-practising, I believe. She was born and raised in Isreal and considers herself well versed in the traditions. Come Monday, when Sukkot is over, I can ask my little Rabbi buddy-- orthodox, very.

quote:
The lady demonstrates ignorance of the topic, though, besides probably not observing Passover week biblically.

Not likely as ignorant of Jewish tradition as yourself. Don't insult my friends.

quote:
According to Exodus 12 every Feast day was a Sabbath or an High Day.

I don't get this from the reading. Looks to me like the first and the seventh day are holy days, but not those days in between. My reading is better for you, actually, because during the crucifixion week the trial of Christ took place on those days between the first and seventh. If, as you say, all seven days were High days, no Jews would have been out and about being political.

quote:
This meant that the Passover month or week that there was an extra Sabbath besides the weekly Sabbath. That should explain to your satisfaction the Sabbath or High Day that occurred in the week of Christ's crucifixion.

You haven't addressed the question. I don't dispute that there was an extra Holy Day that week. I stated so in my initial post.

In Exodus, the day in in question is refered to as quodesh migra' not as a sabbath. Why would a Jew describe it as such? This is what is curious to me about the tale.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-27-2002 7:19 AM Wordswordsman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-28-2002 7:29 AM John has responded

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 29 (18467)
09-28-2002 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by John
09-27-2002 11:40 AM


quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WS: Orthodox Jew, Reformed, other?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Non-practising, I believe. She was born and raised in Isreal and considers herself well versed in the traditions. Come Monday, when Sukkot is over, I can ask my little Rabbi buddy-- orthodox, very.

WS: If she pracices anything not commanded in Exodus, she is not orthodox. Singing psaltries and reclining or sitting to eat the Passover meal are recent changes, as is omission of details concerning the lamb. Anythng more or less than the original commandment is a departure from orthodox judaism.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WS: The lady demonstrates ignorance of the topic, though, besides probably not observing Passover week biblically.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not likely as ignorant of Jewish tradition as yourself. Don't insult my friends.

WS: I have no doubt she would be expert concerning what Jews practice now, but I find it extremely rare that any follow biblical mandate. Animal sacrifice was ended long ago. There can be no excuse for omission of anything and claim orthodoxy. If your friend is a recognized Rabbi, published, then her testimony would be considered. Otherwise it's wise to accept the testimonies of people who are considered experts. Hers would be just her opinion unless sanctioned by her peers. There are plenty of Jewish webites to draw from without having to resort to amateur opinions.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WS: According to Exodus 12 every Feast day was a Sabbath or an High Day.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't get this from the reading. Looks to me like the first and the seventh day are holy days, but not those days in between. My reading is better for you, actually, because during the crucifixion week the trial of Christ took place on those days between the first and seventh. If, as you say, all seven days were High days, no Jews would have been out and about being political.

WS: All seven days were a holy convocation, though only the first was required of all males once a year to appear in Jerusalem. Aftr that day they wee free to return to their duties. The first day of the feast as the first of two actual high days. That one coincided with the regular weekly sabbath, making that particular feast having three sabbath days. But the entire feast was a sabbath rest. The second day was no subject to sabath day ruls, being the official opening of the beginning of the harvest. Jesus was crucified the day before the weekly regular sabbath, not allowed by law to remain on the cross into the sabbath day. Keep in mind the Jewish calendar differences from what we observe. That day he was crucified could not have been our Friday, but had to be our Wednesday. The burial was that evening, the beginning of the Jew's Thursday night (our "Wedneday night"). That provides three nights/three days in the grave. On our Sunday Jesus arose. That Sunday began on our Saturday night at sundown.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WS: This meant that the Passover month or week that there was an extra Sabbath besides the weekly Sabbath. That should explain to your satisfaction the Sabbath or High Day that occurred in the week of Christ's crucifixion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You haven't addressed the question. I don't dispute that there was an extra Holy Day that week. I stated so in my initial post.

In Exodus, the day in in question is refered to as quodesh migra' not as a sabbath. Why would a Jew describe it as such? This is what is curious to me about the tale.

WS: Please supply the verses when dealing with detail.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by John, posted 09-27-2002 11:40 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by John, posted 09-28-2002 12:32 PM Wordswordsman has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 29 (18472)
09-28-2002 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Wordswordsman
09-28-2002 7:29 AM


quote:
WS: If she pracices anything not commanded in Exodus, she is not orthodox.

WS, you are not paying attention. It is very frustrating. The lady I asked is non-practising. The rabbi I will ask is orthodox.

quote:
Singing psaltries and reclining or sitting to eat the Passover meal are recent changes, as is omission of details concerning the lamb. Anythng more or less than the original commandment is a departure from orthodox judaism.

And your point is to discredit my source? Why not just address the issue.

quote:
WS: I have no doubt she would be expert concerning what Jews practice now, but I find it extremely rare that any follow biblical mandate.

Another attempt to discredit my aquaintance?

quote:
Animal sacrifice was ended long ago.

Animal sacrifice ended because the Romans destroyed the last Jewish temple, thereby breaking the priestly tradition.

quote:
If your friend is a recognized Rabbi, published, then her testimony would be considered.

Gee, my friend is an interior designer. However, Rabbi Lubovich is a Rabbi, but I have yet to have to speak with him on this. As I explained, it is a holiday and I am not going to bother him until the holiday is over.

quote:
Otherwise it's wise to accept the testimonies of people who are considered experts.

Interesting... I shall remember this statement.

quote:
Hers would be just her opinion unless sanctioned by her peers.

Yet your opinion of her tradition is somehow valid? Very strange indeed.

quote:
There are plenty of Jewish webites to draw from without having to resort to amateur opinions.

Right.... cause one can believe everything on the web.

quote:
WS: All seven days were a holy convocation

'k. Not disputed.

quote:
The first day of the feast as the first of two actual high days. That one coincided with the regular weekly sabbath, making that particular feast having three sabbath days.

What? You need to explain what you mean here. I see only two Sabbath days. The first is the weekly Sabbath and also the first day of the feast-- note that you said the first corresponds with the regular weekly Sabbath--, and the second would be the Sabbath of the last day of the feast.

quote:
But the entire feast was a sabbath rest.

Did you not say:

quote:
...though only the first was required of all males once a year to appear in Jerusalem. Aftr that day they wee free to return to their duties.

The two statements are contradictory. You cannot have both a Sabbath rest and a return to duties.

quote:
The second day was no subject to sabath day ruls, being the official opening of the beginning of the harvest.

And again? Does this not conflict with the entire holiday being a Sabbath rest?

quote:
Jesus was crucified the day before the weekly regular sabbath, not allowed by law to remain on the cross into the sabbath day.

Then he did not rise on Sunday? Or he did not remain in the grave three days and three nights? You are contradicting your own explaination the events, which can be found here

A couple of gems from that post shall we?

quote:
Jesus could certainly have not been buried until Wednesday sunset

quote:
The tradition of accepting Friday as the crucifixion day is not a reflection of what the Bible reports, the error being in the chosen day if there is error, not in the Bible.

quote:
That had to take some time. He was evidently buried Thursday night, not Wednesday afternoon

quote:
Keep in mind the Jewish calendar differences from what we observe. That day he was crucified could not have been our Friday, but had to be our Wednesday.

The differences in the calenders are only 12 hours. How do you get from Friday to Wednesday?

quote:
The burial was that evening, the beginning of the Jew's Thursday night (our "Wedneday night").

Conflicting with Christ having been buried the day before the weekly regular Sabbath, as above.

Tell you what, pick a calendar and stick with it. I'd prefer the Jewish.

quote:
WS: Please supply the verses when dealing with detail.

The same chapter you cited, Exodus 12, verse 16.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-28-2002 7:29 AM Wordswordsman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-29-2002 8:39 AM John has responded

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 29 (18528)
09-29-2002 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by John
09-28-2002 12:32 PM


"WS, you are not paying attention. It is very frustrating. The lady I asked is non-practising. The rabbi I will ask is orthodox."

WS: You were not paying attention by running the two people together in the same sentnce. Grammar!

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Singing psaltries and reclining or sitting to eat the Passover meal are recent changes, as is omission of details concerning the lamb. Anythng more or less than the original commandment is a departure from orthodox judaism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And your point is to discredit my source? Why not just address the issue.

WS: You did that yourself. I supported the discreditation. There ARE non-practicing Rabbis, none of which should be consulted. They don't practice what they "believe". My additional point is that there is no true orthodoxy among Jews since none practice the pure Torah.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WS: I have no doubt she would be expert concerning what Jews practice now, but I find it extremely rare that any follow biblical mandate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another attempt to discredit my aquaintance?

WS: Not directed against a person, but an "authority" you present.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Animal sacrifice was ended long ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Animal sacrifice ended because the Romans destroyed the last Jewish temple, thereby breaking the priestly tradition.

WS: The Torah provided for a simple tabernacle which could be set up anywhere. It also proivided for simple stone altars set up wherever a person was "led" to build it, upon which animals could be sacrificed. Requiring a temple such as the second temple in Jerusalem was an accommodation afforded for the sake of national identification. The truth is that the smoke of sacrifice animals is no longer accepted by the Lord, who accepted the final sacrifice, that of His Son Jesus. The temple veil was rent before the priests, a fact not disputed by Jews of that day. The whole issue of animal sacrifice was ended by GOD, not Romans who came along in AD 70 taking the actual building down. The sacrifices ended after Jesus died on the cross, years before the Romans did their thing. The Jewish "houses of prayer" (synagogues) had already taken the place of animal sacrifices before the destruction, which were no longer satisfying to the people. The reason for that was the old covenant was ended, the new in effect whether they accepted the new or not.

If sacrifices were desirable, there was provision for the place to so it, to this day. But now such sacrifices are associated with satanism.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are plenty of Jewish webites to draw from without having to resort to amateur opinions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Right.... cause one can believe everything on the web.

WS: Like evolution websites?

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The first day of the feast as the first of two actual high days. That one coincided with the regular weekly sabbath, making that particular feast having three sabbath days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

What? You need to explain what you mean here. I see only two Sabbath days. The first is the weekly Sabbath and also the first day of the feast-- note that you said the first corresponds with the regular weekly Sabbath--, and the second would be the Sabbath of the last day of the feast.

WS: First came the regular weekly sabbath day. The next day was the first of the feast, a high Sabbath day. The last day of the feast as a special sabbath day too. Three sabbath days in that particular feast, then. Not always, since the first day of the feast doesn't often come the day after a weekly sabbath.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But the entire feast was a sabbath rest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you not say:

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...though only the first was required of all males once a year to appear in Jerusalem. Aftr that day they wee free to return to their duties.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The two statements are contradictory. You cannot have both a Sabbath rest and a return to duties.

WS: The first day of the feast was a required-attendance event. Since many of the males were herdsmen, they were excused to return home to tend to sheep, preparations for the harvest, etc. They were expected to observe the three sabbaths, having no obligations towards the inner days of the feast. Any male was also excused from work to participate in all the feast if he could do so. Even on the sabbaths they could still lead sheep to water, take an ox out of a ditch. You are resting upon Pharisaical interpretations which prohibited even acts of mercy on the sabbath.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The second day was no subject to sabath day ruls, being the official opening of the beginning of the harvest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And again? Does this not conflict with the entire holiday being a Sabbath rest?

WS: Not at all. The entire feast COULD be observed every day as a special Sabbath Week, but the two special sabbath days were subject to sabbath day rules. On any sabbath certain necessary work duties were allowed. One could water the sheep and lead them to pasture, but not shear them for market. I'm talking orthodox, not what is current tradition. There are many versions of what is currently practiced.

I'll finish this post later. I will think about a way to get "chalkboard" thoughts over to you with text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by John, posted 09-28-2002 12:32 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by John, posted 09-29-2002 10:40 AM Wordswordsman has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 29 (18533)
09-29-2002 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Wordswordsman
09-29-2002 8:39 AM


quote:
WS: You were not paying attention by running the two people together in the same sentnce. Grammar!

You have got to be kidding me!!!! According to my understanding of English, a period constitutes the end of a sentence. Scroll up and look.

quote:
WS: The Torah provided for a simple tabernacle which could be set up anywhere.

Think about it. Temple destroyed, people dispersed all over the Roman Empire and beyond. The Romans were very very irritated with the Jews at the time. Seperated from the temples and from the Priests and running for cover. What would you do? Ditch your religion or continue the best you can?

quote:
If sacrifices were desirable

IF? God said so.

quote:
WS: First came the regular weekly sabbath day. The next day was the first of the feast, a high Sabbath day. The last day of the feast as a special sabbath day too. Three sabbath days in that particular feast, then. Not always, since the first day of the feast doesn't often come the day after a weekly sabbath.

Well that's a different tale altogether.

quote:
They were expected to observe the three sabbaths, having no obligations towards the inner days of the feast.

This is not what you said previously.

quote:
WS: Not at all. The entire feast COULD be observed every day as a special Sabbath Week, but the two special sabbath days were subject to sabbath day rules.

This is not what you said.

This is pointless if you are going to continue to change the story.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-29-2002 8:39 AM Wordswordsman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by nos482, posted 09-29-2002 11:43 AM John has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-30-2002 11:29 AM John has responded

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 29 (18536)
09-29-2002 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by John
09-29-2002 10:40 AM


One bit of friendly advice. You are hitting your head against a brick wall. I did warn gene90 about Wordswordsman as well.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John, posted 09-29-2002 10:40 AM John has not yet responded

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 4304 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 9 of 29 (18542)
09-29-2002 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by John
09-24-2002 10:09 AM


This question concerning Christ's crucifixion has been brought up before. In the thread "Biblical Contradictions," the following statement was made. "There are contradictory accounts of when Jesus was crucified, depending upon which Gospel you read. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all have him being crucified after passover, while John has him being crucified BEFORE Passover."

I believe you will find the response which I posted to that statement to be of interest in this debate.

"At the time of Christ, there were two timetables in use by the Jews. The Galileans measured each day from sunset to sunset while the Judeans measured from sunrise to sunrise. Therefore all the Galileans, including Jesus and His disciples, would have eaten their Passover meal on what would be by our reckoning Thursday night. The Judeans, on the other hand, would not have eaten their Passover meal until Friday evening. Thus Christ's crucifixion would have taken place after His own Passover meal but just prior to the meal of those who crucified Him.

This explanation is supported by Mark 14:70. In that verse, Peter is told, "Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto." Why would they associate Peter with Christ merely because he was a Galilean? The Galileans had a custom in which they did not work during the day of the Passover. The Judeans, on the other hand, kept the custom of not doing any work after noon on the day of the Passover. Thus any Galilean mingling with a crowd of Judeans on Passover morning would be suspected of being associated with Christ."

I do not, at the moment, have time to discuss the topic to any great detail, but further information can be obtained from the appendix to the book, The Words and Works of Jesus Christ by J. D. Pentecost.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by John, posted 09-24-2002 10:09 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by John, posted 09-30-2002 9:22 AM w_fortenberry has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 29 (18593)
09-30-2002 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by w_fortenberry
09-29-2002 4:50 PM


quote:
Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
"At the time of Christ, there were two timetables in use by the Jews. The Galileans measured each day from sunset to sunset while the Judeans measured from sunrise to sunrise.

Yes, this is interesting. Can you post some references? I have, so far, found only one site concerning this.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by w_fortenberry, posted 09-29-2002 4:50 PM w_fortenberry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by w_fortenberry, posted 09-30-2002 6:56 PM John has not yet responded

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 29 (18596)
09-30-2002 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by John
09-29-2002 10:40 AM


quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WS: You were not paying attention by running the two people together in the same sentnce. Grammar!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You have got to be kidding me!!!! According to my understanding of English, a period constitutes the end of a sentence. Scroll up and look.

WS: I was responding to two posts, failing to include the original:
"In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover."
You offered her opinion as though she were an authority. Then you came back with: "Non-practising, I believe. She was born and raised in Isreal and considers herself well versed in the traditions. Come Monday, when Sukkot is over, I can ask my little Rabbi buddy-- orthodox, very."

That's not good use of any language, especially English. You presented an image of a currently non-practicing female Rabbi who considers herself well versed, but still respectful of Sukkot and orthodox Judaism. You switched subjects without an indication of inserting a second person. You had not previously indicated you had a "Rabbi buddy". The subject was clearly the woman, who is non-practicing. Besides, why would anyone want to trust the beliefs of a person not willing to practice their beliefs (a hypocrite)? I'd rather consider the opinion of someone (a scholar) who can view the beliefs objectively who wouldn't necessarily practice it.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WS: The Torah provided for a simple tabernacle which could be set up anywhere.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Think about it. Temple destroyed, people dispersed all over the Roman Empire and beyond. The Romans were very very irritated with the Jews at the time. Seperated from the temples and from the Priests and running for cover. What would you do? Ditch your religion or continue the best you can?

WS: That was destruction of the national identity of Israel, not of Judaism. Jews with their priests had been being dispersed around the world since at least 721 B.C.E. There were numerous dispersions that actually spread Judaism everywhere they went. Synagogues and independent altars could be found in every nation, though the sacrifice at the Second Temple was decidedly the most important one, representing all the people of the covenant, not just one enclave of Jews at Jerusalem. It was the intent and dream of every Jew to make the pilgimage to Jerusalem at least once in his life, though required by the Torah to visit every year at least on that one High Day. The destruction of the Second Temple ended that possibility, but not the possibility sacrifices could continue at other altars. There were plenty of priests available in all those scattered synagogues to carry out legal priestly duties. The desire to continue animal sacrifice ended because God ended it at Calvary, making it abundantly clear He had no further use for the Temple. The veil was rent, the Holy Place exposed to gentile eyes, by God Himself.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If sacrifices were desirable
----------------------------------------------------------------------

IF? God said so.

WS: You don't understand? It used to be once a year, but no more once Jesus was offered up, whether the Jews meant that for good or evil. The Father God accepted THAT human being lifted up as THE acceptable sacrifice that ended all further need of any shedding of blood for sin, because THAT human was also His only begotten Son. Even though the Jews denied that one fact about Jesus, they collectively realized the ending of their covenant was at hand. Hence, the need to revise their religion, concentrating on making their synagogues "houses of prayer", which had not been emphasized so starkly before. They already were beginning that change. Why do you suppose that? I think it was because God was communicating to them the end of the covenant was near, in fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy in Jeremiah 31:31
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

They knew it was coming, but not when or in what form it would come. When it came, they just went away on another route, but not all of them. The entire Church was of Jewish converts for seven years.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WS: First came the regular weekly sabbath day. The next day was the first of the feast, a high Sabbath day. The last day of the feast as a special sabbath day too. Three sabbath days in that particular feast, then. Not always, since the first day of the feast doesn't often come the day after a weekly sabbath.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well that's a different tale altogether.

WS: I'll admit this is a bit difficult to sort out, finding several versions of what and when things happened. I've decided to ignore all the confusing theories and just rely on the Scripture this time around, which might not match my previous statements in every detail. I'm "thinking outloud" now, 'chalkboard talk', with pen and paper block diagrams, arrows all over the sheet, and possibly got it right all in one place. Bear with me.
To this day the Jewish days follow the original:

Monday After Jesus arose, last day of the feast, also a one-a-year
high day. Exodus 12:16 "And in the first day there shall
be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall
be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be
done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only
may be done of you."

No work allowed the first day (Passover) or the seventh.
Males were allowed to resume work duties in-between,
including sheaf day.

Sunday (Sat. sunset-Sun sunset) Jesus was out of the grave before
Mary arrived first thing. Legally Jesus could emerge
at the "zero" point sunset Saturday, walking out into Sunday,
the first day of the week. No night in the grave. Roman guard
dealt with by angel, knocked out to their peril.

Saturday (Friday sunset-Saturday sunset) Tomb guarded, third night
and day in the grave. Regular weekly sabbath day.

Friday (Thursday sunset-Friday sunset) Tomb guarded, second night
and day in the grave. No special day.

Thursday (Wednesday sunset-Thursday sunset) Tomb guarded. First night
and day in the tomb. Sheaf day, opening the harvest season.

Wednesday (Tuesday sunset-Wednesday sunset) Jesus crucified between
the 6th and 9th hour- noon to 3pm. His body was kept by
Pilate until retrieved by Joseph, who placed the body in his
own tomb after dark (even, past sunset), making burial on
Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special
once-a-year Sabbath.

Tuesday (Monday sunset-Tuesday sunset) Jesus took Passover meal,
betrayed, arrested, tried before High Priest and Pilate in
the night (illegally). Jews couldn't kill Him on that day.
Besides, the high priest would have already begun
preparations immediately after sunset, the beginning of
Preparation Day. The priests couldn't do anything toward the
High Day of the feast on Passover. Passover itself was a
special once-a-year Sabbath in addition to the regular
weekly sabbath. When one followed the other the next day, the
preparations are immensely dificult. The Passover was the
first day of the feast of unleavened bread which must last
seven days.

It's entirely possible the day Jesus was crucified was the day before the High Day of the feast, on the day the priests made preparation for the High Day. "Pesach" was beginning on the evening following the regular sabbath.
Matthew 27:62
"Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,"

That meeting was for setting the Roman guard at the tomb.

We know the Jews wouldn't allow the crucifixion on the feast day from Matthew 26:5
"But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people."

And we know Jesus was alive observing the Passover on the first day of the feast, being betrayed that day, tried and condemned, crucified the next day:
Matthew 26:17
"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?"

The disciples came to Jesus on the Passover day, day one of the high Sabbat week.

I'm trying to find a Jewish calendar site that traced the PAssovers all the way back to the first one, showing which Passovers coincided with weekly sabbaths. You could click on any one Hebrew year number and bring up their calendar and any pertinent events alongthe way. It might no longer exist. If someone finds it, please holler. The author was very anti Christ, trying to dilute the implications of the events of Jesus' passion week and resurrection, speculating that anyone could have engineered his own crucifixion to match prophecy. The nonsense on that site kept me from setting it as a favorite even though the calendar was so revealing. I'm willing to go back there again for the part I want to double-check my own observation here. But from all I can find so far, the three sabbaths did happen that week of that feast, the only dispute being which days. I rest on the Scriptures, though welcome any other support.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John, posted 09-29-2002 10:40 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by John, posted 09-30-2002 3:15 PM Wordswordsman has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 29 (18620)
09-30-2002 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Wordswordsman
09-30-2002 11:29 AM


WS: I was responding to two posts, failing to include the original:
"In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover."
You offered her opinion as though she were an authority.[quote][b]

I offered her opinion as that of someone raised in the traditions of Judaism, which is completely and unequivocally true.

quote:
Then you came back with: "Non-practising, I believe. She was born and raised in Isreal and considers herself well versed in the traditions. Come Monday, when Sukkot is over, I can ask my little Rabbi buddy-- orthodox, very."

Also quite unequivocally true. I am an ex- and anti- Southern Baptist but I am very well versed in the traditions as I was raised within them.

quote:
That's not good use of any language, especially English.

Is English your first language?

quote:
You presented an image of a currently non-practicing female Rabbi who considers herself well versed, but still respectful of Sukkot and orthodox Judaism.

This is the most pitiful attempt at wiggling out of a misreading I have ever seen. 'Fess up. No big deal. We all make mistakes.

quote:
You switched subjects without an indication of inserting a second person. You had not previously indicated you had a "Rabbi buddy".

Think about it. I DID ask my friend. I CAN ASK THE RABBI after Sukkot.

quote:
Besides, why would anyone want to trust the beliefs of a person not willing to practice their beliefs (a hypocrite)?

Did I say she believed? I said she was a Jew and was raised in the traditions. Gee, but you like to jump to conclusions.

quote:
The desire to continue animal sacrifice ended because God ended it at Calvary, making it abundantly clear He had no further use for the Temple. The veil was rent, the Holy Place exposed to gentile eyes, by God Himself.

Prove it. I know what the NT says about this. Where is the confirmation from outside sources?

Ok. I mapped out what you said up to the following and I find no Sabbath or High Day in there except for the regular weekly Sabbath. Your statement that work can be performed on sheaf day excludes it from high day status.

quote:
Wednesday (Tuesday sunset-Wednesday sunset) Jesus crucified between
the 6th and 9th hour- noon to 3pm. His body was kept by
Pilate until retrieved by Joseph, who placed the body in his
own tomb after dark (even, past sunset), making burial on
Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special
once-a-year Sabbath.

Burial was on the once-a-year-Sabbath? This doesn't jibe with Mar. 15:42 which says it was the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath.

quote:
It's entirely possible the day Jesus was crucified was the day before the High Day of the feast, on the day the priests made preparation for the High Day.

In which case, you have the high priests and pharisees marching thier butts down to Pilate's on the High Day, which makes no sense. Such activity would have been forbidden. Of course, this is a flaw with any version of the story.

quote:
The disciples came to Jesus on the Passover day, day one of the high Sabbat week.

This would be the high day. Now if this was the day before Christ was tried and crucified, that means that the first sabbat rest day was pre-betrayal and seven days later was post-resurrection and therefore the Sabbat was the regular weekly sabbat on Friday. And the numbers get screwed up again. Unless you propose more than three high days during the allotted time.

quote:
I'm trying to find a Jewish calendar site that traced the PAssovers all the way back to the first one, showing which Passovers coincided with weekly sabbaths.

http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-30-2002 11:29 AM Wordswordsman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-01-2002 8:58 PM John has responded

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 4304 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 13 of 29 (18636)
09-30-2002 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by John
09-30-2002 9:22 AM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
Yes, this is interesting. Can you post some references? I have, so far, found only one site concerning this.

The only source which I will personally endorse at the moment is the book already mentioned. However, if you would like internet sources, a "google" search for "Galilean timetable" and "Galilean passover" will yield several results.

Again, I can not personally endorse any internet sources at this time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by John, posted 09-30-2002 9:22 AM John has not yet responded

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 29 (18768)
10-01-2002 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by John
09-30-2002 3:15 PM


WS: I was responding to two posts, failing to include the original:
"In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover."
You offered her opinion as though she were an authority.
quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I offered her opinion as that of someone raised in the traditions of Judaism, which is completely and unequivocally true.

WS: I was not questioning that. All I did was challenge the value of her opinion since she is non-practicing. Then you ran two sentences together in the same paragraph, the two not linked. You jumped from her to the Rabbi.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you came back with: "Non-practising, I believe. She was born and raised in Isreal and considers herself well versed in the traditions. Come Monday, when Sukkot is over, I can ask my little Rabbi buddy-- orthodox, very."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Also quite unequivocally true. I am an ex- and anti- Southern Baptist but I am very well versed in the traditions as I was raised within them.

WS: I was not questioning that story. You had not mentioned the Rabbi buddy before, jumping subjects, as though the woman was a Rabbi, though not practicing, while honoring Sukkot. I too began in the So. Baptist tradition, beginning to question why when our preacher passed out black magic markers and proceeded to instruct us to blot out certain passages. He didn't want the word "tongues" vocalized from Corinthians, and refused to allow Mark 16 to be read, among other topics. I went along with that until I began to learn some things about how wrong he was. I went from there to charismatic independent, along with half the church.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not good use of any language, especially English.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is English your first language?

WS: Only spoken one. I like to study Greek and am working on Hebrew, having sound some online courses.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You presented an image of a currently non-practicing female Rabbi who considers herself well versed, but still respectful of Sukkot and orthodox Judaism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the most pitiful attempt at wiggling out of a misreading I have ever seen. 'Fess up. No big deal. We all make mistakes.

WS: Enough of this. I made no error. You employed every poor sentence/paragraph structure.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The desire to continue animal sacrifice ended because God ended it at Calvary, making it abundantly clear He had no further use for the Temple. The veil was rent, the Holy Place exposed to gentile eyes, by God Himself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Prove it. I know what the NT says about this. Where is the confirmation from outside sources?

WS: The historian Josephus.

Ok. I mapped out what you said up to the following and I find no Sabbath or High Day in there except for the regular weekly Sabbath. Your statement that work can be performed on sheaf day excludes it from high day status.

WS: Don't forget the Passover day. That was a High Sabbath Day.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday (Tuesday sunset-Wednesday sunset) Jesus crucified between
the 6th and 9th hour- noon to 3pm. His body was kept by
Pilate until retrieved by Joseph, who placed the body in his
own tomb after dark (even, past sunset), making burial on
Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special
once-a-year Sabbath.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Burial was on the once-a-year-Sabbath? This doesn't jibe with Mar. 15:42 which says it was the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath.

WS: The day of preparation was the when the lambs were killed for the passover, the day before the High Sabbath of the feast, not the ordinary weekly sabbath. The whole point of crucifying Jesus when they did was to make sure He wasn't left on the cross into the High Sabbath.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's entirely possible the day Jesus was crucified was the day before the High Day of the feast, on the day the priests made preparation for the High Day.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In which case, you have the high priests and pharisees marching thier butts down to Pilate's on the High Day, which makes no sense. Such activity would have been forbidden. Of course, this is a flaw with any version of the story.

WS: So was trial at night without representation forbidden, and without the Sanhedrin involved at that. They did what they did in the night, also anathema. By daybreak Jesus had already been condemned illegally by the high priest and been before Pilate then scourged.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The disciples came to Jesus on the Passover day, day one of the high Sabbat week.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This would be the high day. Now if this was the day before Christ was tried and crucified, that means that the first sabbat rest day was pre-betrayal and seven days later was post-resurrection and therefore the Sabbat was the regular weekly sabbat on Friday. And the numbers get screwed up again. Unless you propose more than three high days during the allotted time.

WS: See how far you strayed from wrong conclusions?

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm trying to find a Jewish calendar site that traced the PAssovers all the way back to the first one, showing which Passovers coincided with weekly sabbaths.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/

WS: Thanks, but I had that one. I'm looking for one that is really mean towards Christianity. It actually supports the case. If they knew it they would probably rework the site. They have the analysis down to the day and hour in itself verifying the fact Jesus was crucified. They just don't believe anything said about Him in the NT. But in doing that, they "prove" the NT true, not understanding the implications of their own observations about the calendar. Might not be online now. Maybe someone pointed that out. Wish I had made HTML copies. Hindsight is so 20/20.

But just in case I'm ordering that CD set of the Answering Islam site in case someting happens to that one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by John, posted 09-30-2002 3:15 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by John, posted 10-02-2002 10:53 AM Wordswordsman has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 29 (18840)
10-02-2002 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Wordswordsman
10-01-2002 8:58 PM


quote:
All I did was challenge the value of her opinion since she is non-practicing.

What opinion? It is primarily a question about the usage of the language. May I ask a native speaker of Spanish about the language? Secondarily it is a question of tradition, and she knows the traditions. That she does not practise the religion is irrelevant, despite your emotional reactions to the fact.

But, why not just attack the question directly? Show me something to the contrary that is not embedded in Christian apology. Show me a Jewish or scholarly source to the contrary.

quote:
WS: Only spoken one. I like to study Greek and am working on Hebrew, having sound some online courses.

Check out http://rain.prohosting.com/davar/ and http://foundationstone.com.au/ if you haven't already.

quote:
WS: Enough of this. I made no error. You employed every poor sentence/paragraph structure.

LOL..... I can see the school teacher in you.

quote:
WS: The historian Josephus.

Got something more specific?

quote:
WS: Don't forget the Passover day. That was a High Sabbath Day.

By your calculation, just for clarity, which day is that?

quote:
Wednesday (Tuesday sunset-Wednesday sunset) Jesus crucified between
the 6th and 9th hour- noon to 3pm. His body was kept by
Pilate until retrieved by Joseph, who placed the body in his
own tomb after dark (even, past sunset), making burial on
Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special
once-a-year Sabbath.

quote:
WS: The day of preparation was the when the lambs were killed for the passover, the day before the High Sabbath of the feast, not the ordinary weekly sabbath.

Read your own statement-- quoted above. "...making burial on Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special once-a-year-Sabbath."

I repeat:
Burial was on the once-a-year-Sabbath? This doesn't jibe with Mar. 15:42 which says it was the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath.

You seem to be arguing two conflicting things here. 1) That Christ was buried on the 'high day' 2) That Christ was buried on the day of preparation prior to the 'high day'

quote:
The whole point of crucifying Jesus when they did was to make sure He wasn't left on the cross into the High Sabbath.

Yes, I know.

quote:
WS: So was trial at night without representation forbidden, and without the Sanhedrin involved at that. They did what they did in the night, also anathema. By daybreak Jesus had already been condemned illegally by the high priest and been before Pilate then scourged.

I am not talking about Roman law. That is another topic and another reason I doubt the tale. I am talking about Jewish law-- the laws of the pharisees, which you have previously argued to be extreme. Yet, you don't question a tale which has them violating these laws?

quote:
John:This would be the high day. Now if this was the day before Christ was tried and crucified, that means that the first sabbat rest day was pre-betrayal and seven days later was post-resurrection and therefore the Sabbat was the regular weekly sabbat on Friday. And the numbers get screwed up again. Unless you propose more than three high days during the allotted time.

quote:
WS: See how far you strayed from wrong conclusions?


uh.... no, or I would not have brought it up. How about responding to the question?

quote:
They have the analysis down to the day and hour in itself verifying the fact Jesus was crucified.

LOL..... that isn't verification, its fable. That kind of precision ought to raise a few red flags.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-01-2002 8:58 PM Wordswordsman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by John, posted 10-09-2002 12:02 AM John has not yet responded

  
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