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Author Topic:   The Existence of Jesus Christ
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 295 of 378 (569321)
07-21-2010 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Theodoric
07-21-2010 10:39 AM


Re: Bump for GDR
I don't pretend to have a educaion in either theology or history. There is a whole thread here going back years and there isn't a lot of point in rehashing it all. I'll just say this and let it go.
Paul's early writings, including Romans, were written within 20 to 25 years of the resurrection. As I said there would be many around at that time who would have been able to point out that Paul was off base. Josephus was writing around 50 years after and wouldn't have including writing about something that had been discredited by eye witnesses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 10:39 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 07-21-2010 11:51 AM GDR has replied
 Message 297 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2010 11:53 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 299 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 12:05 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 323 by Kapyong, posted 07-23-2010 6:27 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 298 of 378 (569326)
07-21-2010 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by jar
07-21-2010 11:51 AM


Re: Bump for GDR
jar writes:
And many did just that. There is no indication that Paul ever meet Jesus, but only that he believed in the existence of Jesus.
Where is the evidence that "many did just that"?
Paul may or may not have met Jesus but he certainly had considerable contact with those that had.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 07-21-2010 11:51 AM jar has replied

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 Message 300 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 12:06 PM GDR has not replied
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 Message 304 by jar, posted 07-21-2010 3:42 PM GDR has replied
 Message 324 by Kapyong, posted 07-23-2010 6:30 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 302 of 378 (569364)
07-21-2010 3:22 PM


wiki
This wiki article goes well beyond anything that I would have knowledge of, so if any of you are genuinely interested here it is. It is very interesting by the way.
Historicity of Jesus

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 3:32 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 305 of 378 (569381)
07-21-2010 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Theodoric
07-21-2010 3:32 PM


Re: wiki
Theodoric writes:
Notice that there is nothing contemporary.. The New testament can't be used as evidence to prove itself. Everything else is decades or centuries later.
To the best of my knowledge newspapers weren't around back then. I don't know of anything that was wriotten except what was written after the fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 3:32 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 4:40 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 306 of 378 (569382)
07-21-2010 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by jar
07-21-2010 3:42 PM


Re: Bump for GDR
jar writes:
The vast majority of folk did not believe Paul.
It really is that simple.
Where is the evidence for that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 07-21-2010 3:42 PM jar has replied

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 Message 312 by jar, posted 07-21-2010 5:30 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 310 of 378 (569387)
07-21-2010 4:49 PM


You guys define the rules for what constitutes evidence and you don't follow them yourselves.

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 314 of 378 (569396)
07-21-2010 5:48 PM


If nothing else the Bible is an historical document which you can either accept as evidence or reject in the same way. It exists. You can say that you don't believe there is justfication for accepting it or not. Frankly it doesn't matter to me if you do or you don't; I am interested in discussion and am not really concerned with scoring debating points.
There are all sorts of things in life that we can consider and decide what it is we believe. I accept certain things in life as do all of us. Faith in nothing is still faith.

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2010 6:01 PM GDR has replied
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 316 of 378 (569408)
07-21-2010 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by crashfrog
07-21-2010 6:01 PM


crashfrog writes:
So is Time Magazine. But a claim in Time Magazine that something happened in 33 AD isn't evidence.
I would call it evidence but not irrefutable evidence.
crashfrog writes:
The Bible is a historical document, to be sure, but it's not a contemporary document to the events that it claims to describe.
Agrred, but all of the accounts from that era as far as I know were written after the fact. Even Josephus wrote about the period preceding the resurrection by several years even when you disregard his story of creation.
crashfrog writes:
That's its critical weakness, and the reason that it can't reasonably be taken as evidence for any of the events it describes.
As somebody here said it wouldn't stand up in a court of law but that doesn't mean that it can't be used as evidence that can be either accepted or rejected. We have come to different conclusions.
crashfrog writes:
So let's discuss the evidence for the existence and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which you led us to believe was "overwhelming." You accepted that the resurrection of Christ would surely be an "extraordinary" event. Doesn't such an event require extraordinary evidence to support it? To say that Jesus Christ existed is not at all the same as saying Julius Caesar existed, because nobody claims Caesar as lord and savior, or claims he did miracles on the floor of the Roman Senate.
There isn't a lot of point in doing this because the bulk of the evidence comes from the Bible which you completely reject. I will say however that it isn't just because the Bible says so but the way that the accounts are written.
I posted this link on the other thread but I think you've already read it.
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Jesus_Resurrection.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2010 6:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 319 of 378 (569414)
07-21-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Theodoric
07-21-2010 7:02 PM


That's my point. There is nothing to discuss as you put no value in anything that I would have to say because there is no evidence that is irrefutable.
The Bible exists but as it can't be proven to be true. You don't accept it so there's no point in opening up a discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 7:02 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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